Overcoming Social Anxiety: Managing the Pressure to Be Interesting in Groups as a Highly Sensitive Person

Todd: [00:00:00] One of the ways to do the work is in these open sessions where you have the advantage of being in a group. We also have Inquiry Circle, which is also a group practice of the work. But there are times when doing the work privately can also really serve. For example, if you’re working on an issue that is private you don’t want to have others know about.

Maybe there’s some shame or embarrassment, or maybe it’s just a delicate topic. Maybe there’s a lot of sensitivity or even trauma in, in that working in a private session, private setting with me can allow you the freedom not to think about what other people are thinking and to just dive deeply into whatever it is that you want to do the work on.

Private sessions also are a way of doing a practice of the work. Some people do a weekly session with me and it’s a great way to just dip in, do the work one for an hour once a week, and it can [00:01:00] be a kind of practice for the work. In fact, I have some clients I’ve been working with for. Gosh I think I have a client I’ve been working with for 10 years just about every week.

So consider these as options for how you do the work. So private sessions are available at the work as meditation.com, and you’ll find a whole section, a whole page called private sessions,

Client: and I tend to be quiet and let other people talk in a group. Situation and I’ve noticed that what’s I’ve been asking myself when I’ve been in that situation, what, why aren’t you talking, why aren’t you participating? And that I have the thought that it has to be something interesting. Not just to talk.

Todd: Welcome to Wiggle Room, a podcast where we start with stress and look for ways to turn it around. And we use the work of Byron [00:02:00] Katie, this simple way of questioning your thoughts, something we don’t normally do. It can be very revealing. Because the one place we never look is in the opposite of what we’re actually thinking.

We usually don’t question our thoughts. We just take them for granted. It’s not until stress hits or. Problems come up that we start to question ourselves. And so this is a natural process. The work of Byron Katie is a systematic way of questioning stressful thoughts so that you can begin to see new options, see new ways of seeing things, and find relief.

I’m Todd Smith and on the program today, we start with the recording from. A recent open session and there are a couple questions as well as a piece of work doing the work on this recording. And then I’ll end with a reading of [00:03:00] a newsletter article. So the questions are interesting. They’re talking about some of the mechanics of actually doing the work and how to.

Hold yourself, how to think of it, how to actually approach it. The work is interesting. We’re talking about when you’re in a group needing to think of something interesting to say and the stress of that. So let’s dive into this and just listen to these interesting questions and this interesting piece of inquiry.

As always, I don’t edit these recordings. I want you to hear exactly how it went through so that you can experience the genuine process of doing the work. So here we go.

Client 2: I’ve been doing the, like a judge or neighbor worksheet, and I notice as I’m going down the worksheet. That it’s [00:04:00] almost like dragging me out of the situation itself, but not like in a bad way. It’s like taking me to different moments in time with the same person. Yeah. So it’s like instead of being, I feel like instead of being a judge or neighbor worksheet, it becomes like almost one liners at one point.

And I’m not sure if it’s more beneficial to stick to the. To the main moment of the judge or neighbor worksheet, or actually allow it to explore on those moments, like separately. What do you think? 

Todd: What a great question. Yeah. I think this is something that many of us have experienced. I know I, I have many times.

And you just have to listen and feel what feels. Good to you. There’s no right way to do this, but one of the things that I notice for myself is that I start going [00:05:00] in, going into the rabbit hole, and I. I am just pulled to go look over here, and sometimes going and looking over there feels like just the right thing to do because that’s where my attention is.

That’s where my interest is, and so I’ll move in that direction. In fact, I often think of these little moment situations that we have. We pick a situation, oh, he said this. I got angry. That’s a moment and I pick that situation and then I write a judge your neighbor worksheet on it. But actually, I think of that as like a portal that’s just like the entryway into a whole world of stuff.

A lot of memories, a lot of old situations, a lot of all kinds of different things. Not just that person, but other people like that. That’s why we have that question of what images do you see, when you’re, how do you react? What images do you see? Like a lot of images can come up from past situations, and [00:06:00] so to just cut those off and say, I’m not gonna look at that, I’m just focused on this moment.

I think for me, that would stop me from getting what I came for in that moment like that. Why did that stress me? Also because of this. And so seeing all that helps to inform my inquiry about that one particular moment. So what I usually do, and again, there’s just, you have to play with this, but.

What I’ll do is I’ll start with this moment that happened, whatever today, and I’m angry at him because of he said something, and I’ll keep referring to that moment, but I’ll allow myself to go into some of those other moments from the past that come up and I’ll be aware of that and.

If it becomes really strong, I might even allow myself to have more than one moment as my reference point when I’m answering the questions. And so I might actually be answering the question from the moment right [00:07:00] now, but also from the moment in another place. If my brain is not going to get confused by it, I will sometimes allow myself that, that freedom.

Yeah. Now there are other times, I’m just gonna play both sides here a little bit because there are other times where I feel like that’s distracting me because I’m really just focused on this particular moment that happened now, and if I feel like it’s dividing my attention too much, then I might just say, okay, put that on hold.

I’m gonna write another judge your neighbor worksheet on that other situation from the past, like maybe when I was young, something about my parents or something about some. Something that happened a long time ago, and just write a new worksheet on that, and then finish the one here and then go to that one.

That’s another great way. So you’ll feel for yourself, whether you’re dividing yourself or whether it’s working together. And if it’s working together, where’s the problem? If it’s distracting you, then cut it off. Make it two separate [00:08:00] ones. I’ve even done one-liners where I had, I was questioning one thought.

But I was referring to five or six different situations and I was getting my examples from all these different situations and it worked for me. You really can’t do it wrong. But those are some of my experiences exploring it. And just test and try and see what makes sense to you and follow your heart, follow your interest, and, you can’t explore wrong. That’s my favorite way of thinking of it. You can’t explore wrong, you just explore. Okay. So I took the left side, left fork of the river and I walked three miles that way. Okay, great. But now I want to go back and explore the right fork. Fine. Or I don’t wanna explore that.

I just want to keep going. ’cause there’s another cool thing like you can’t explore wrong. 

Client 2: Yeah. Thank you. That’s great because I noticed that I started like at one point and then I completely went away, 20 years back. And then at [00:09:00] some point it’s like dragging me back to the moment that I started initially.

So that was like interesting to see if I got lost in there and it was like not worth it or something to get back to it. So I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. 

Todd: There’s no have tos in this, right? We’re just. We’re just looking and seeing what we see, but there is a kind of structure at the same time. So I’m holding a moment.

I’m asking how I react in that moment. I’m exploring who I’d be without the thought in that moment, but there’s gonna be crossover into other situations that can happen and some people are more comfortable holding it very tightly. Only focus on that one situation. And that really works for some people.

And some people are a little less like rigid that way. They prefer doing a little more like exploring different things along the way. But you’ll know for you where the balance is and you’ll [00:10:00] know if you’re really still answering the question, if you’re really still on track, if you’re still doing the same inquiry.

There’s a difference between that and just going off completely into just thinking about anything or just, just starting to analyze. Now that’s a different thing if I go into analysis, like I’m starting to analyze, oh yeah, that’s why that happened, and that’s why that happened and that’s why that happened.

And now I’m not really answering the question. How do I react? When I believe the thought or I’m not really answering the question, who would I be without the thought or I’m not really finding a turnaround. So you’ll feel with experience, you’ll feel when you’re in the work, when you’re doing the work or when you’ve stepped out of the work.

And if you have stepped out of the work, that’s when I would bring myself back to the work. But within the work, there’s the moment situation, which I often bring myself back to, but there may be other situations that, that are worth sitting in as well. [00:11:00] 

Client 2: Great. Thank you. 

Todd: Yeah, you’re welcome. All right, so anyone else have a question or want to do the work?

Yeah, Marika, 

Client 3: I was wondering in I’m working on this. Big issue of of the how we treat the planet. And then, and while I was writing that worksheet, I thought, would it be more efficient to break it down to something, to smaller things? Or sometimes it feels like this is just too big.

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. So the problem with big problems is that they’re big.

This is the same problem with general statement, he is a [00:12:00] terrible person, like really general or I’m not good enough, like really general or the planet is going to be destroyed. Like the, there’s no hope. It’s, these are huge. They’re big, they’re hard to grasp. And so if you find that, then yeah, finding a specific part of that and focusing on that part can make it easier.

But I will say that. If your mind’s open enough to it, you can work on big things. You can work on the most general statement in the world. You can work on something large, but it’s going to be more challenging to do the work. And it’s gonna be harder to keep your focus, but it can be done. This is what I was saying earlier where I might think of several different situations.

Find my examples from each of these different situations when I’m working on something more general or something big like this. So in this case, with you, with the [00:13:00] world and the state of how we, how we’re treating the planet and the future of the world and all of that where’s your sense of it?

Do you feel like it is getting too general or too hard or too big or, and if so. What are some of the smaller ways you can look at it? Or do you feel like you are able to hold it and you’re finding some meaningful inquiry as a result of it? What’s your experience? 

Client 3: It feels like this is reality for me.

So the way I am looking at it now, the way I’m doing it now is real. So I think it works for me. And I also noticed that the small situation that I took with the insects, noticing that there are less insects is actually keeping it small in a way. So it’s both, it’s it works both ways. 

Todd: Yeah. I have noticed that too, [00:14:00] when I.

When my real issue was with something larger, and then I choose something smaller to try to try to make it easier for me to do the work on maybe, or to try to just, yeah, keep it focused or something. Sometimes I lose something, sometimes I lose something because my real issue is with the big thing.

Then let me work on the big thing that, that’s fine and you can do both. You can focus on small parts of it and you can focus on the big thing. You may have to do a lot of work. This may be a topic that keeps your attention for a long time. I don’t know, but I don’t completely disregard working on large statements.

I don’t disregard working on any statement. If it’s there and it’s stressful for me, I’ll give it a try and. You could work the same big issue, same statement, even a hundred times, and you might see different [00:15:00] examples each time. You might see things, it, it could be different. So again, I don’t have any absolutes here, but there’s nothing wrong with working something big as long as you’re not getting lost by it, lost in it, or somehow, or intimidated by it.

Or going nowhere with it, right? Because it can happen. Okay. Going for the planet and it’s too much. And I can’t find examples, but if it’s real for you, chances are you will find real examples for you that are going to give you the balance that you’re looking for. So I would try it both ways.

Do a little bit of specifics, do a little bit of general, and. Break the problem down into its parts, put the problem back together, do the work on both sides, and you might have the best chances of finding something that’s meaningful for you. 

Client 3: Okay, thanks. 

Todd: Yeah, you’re welcome. That’s the key. We’re looking for [00:16:00] something meaningful for me.

Like when we’re doing examples for turnarounds, we’re looking for genuine. Examples, what that means is something that’s genuinely true for me, that makes sense to me, that moves me, that touches me. And sometimes you’ll find that in the general, and sometimes you’ll find that in the specific, but you’ll know whether it’s you’re getting moved or touched or if there’s meaning in what you’re finding or not.

And if not. Then try a different way, and if so, keep going that way so you can feel your way as you 

Client: explore. Yeah.

Todd: Yeah, you can find this even in like relationships, right? Like you can work, you can do your thoughts on the whole relationship. You can do a whole, you can do your question, your thoughts about the whole relationship, or you can question your thoughts about one incident within that relationship.

One moment when something got triggered you, they’re gonna give different things [00:17:00] and they’re both well worth looking at. Yeah.

Okay. So anyone else have a question or wanna do the work? And when I say anyone else doesn’t have to be different people, whatever. If anyone wants to do the work or anyone has a question, just let me know.

Bye.[00:18:00] 

Meg. 

Client: So I have a reoccurring thought that like when I’m in a group that I need to think of something interesting to say. And I tend to be quiet and let other people talk in a group situation. And I’ve noticed that what’s I’ve been asking myself when I’ve been in that situation, why aren’t you talking, why aren’t you participating?

And then I have the thought that it has to be something interesting, like not just to talk.

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. Let’s do it. So you need to think of something interesting to say when you’re in this kind of a situation. Is that true?

Client: No.

Todd: So how do you react? What happens when you think that you need to think of something interesting to say?[00:19:00] 

Client: I feel phony. I feel like I’m trying to come up with something interesting to say. Like I don’t feel like I’m being natural or genuine. It’s not like it just doesn’t come out like I feel like I’ve gotta compose something, so I don’t feel, I feel like I’m trying, I don’t really feel like I’m just. Having natural conversation, like I do one-on-one much better than I do in a group.

So I don’t feel like I have much interesting to say, I start to, analyze that. So I like, I beat myself up because I’m not coming up with anything that’s that interesting, so I’m like, 

Todd: exactly 

Client: I’m like, oh, just stay quiet, don’t let everybody else talk.

But [00:20:00] I feel nervous too. I feel like, oh, they’re not gonna notice. I haven’t said anything. Everybody else has said so much and I haven’t said anything yet. So I feel like, 

Todd: yeah.

Client: Yeah, it makes me nervous and and less than not equal, smaller, quieter, yet to join Doesn’t seem the right thing either. Like just to say something or just to agree with somebody or just to, I don’t know. It’s hard to say. Like it’s awkward and I don’t enjoy it. Totally. 

Todd: Yeah.

It’s two, two beliefs, almost con at the same time. One is, I have to say something and on top of that it better be interesting and so like I can’t be quiet, but I can’t [00:21:00] come up with something at the same, or I have to come up with something. It’s like a lot of pressure, A lot of additional, yeah.

Pressure, stress, or I can see where nervousness can come in. Yeah. So who would you be in a group without the thought that you need to think of something interesting to say?

Client: I wouldn’t be editing myself. I would just say it. What? What crossed my mind? I would just, I.

Be more relaxed. ’cause I don’t, I know I don’t have to say anything.

Todd: And how do [00:22:00] you experience the group when you’re in it and you’re not thinking that you need to? Think of something interesting to say.

Client: More equal, more like I, I have his right to be there as everybody else. It’s more joining than them comparing the group to me. It’s more I’m part of the group. 

Todd: Yeah.

Client: The reason, the commonality of the group itself. Like what we all have in common, why we are a group.

Todd: Yeah. As a reference. Who are you in a one-on-one interaction. I assume there you don’t have the thought that you need to think of something interesting to say. What’s it like there? By comparison, [00:23:00] just as a reference? 

Client: It feels very back and forth equal.

I’m not without thoughts like, not, I’m not I don’t edit. 

Todd: That’s it. Yeah. Yeah. This thought I need to think of something interesting to say. Makes me edit, makes me censor myself, makes me judge everything that I’m thinking or thinking of saying instead of just saying it. 

So without the thought, who would you be in the group?

Client: Much more relaxed, less editing. I just would say it. I wouldn’t have to go through that interesting filter. You wouldn’t have to [00:24:00] make the cut, 

Todd: like 

Client: of a quality statement. It would just the normal conversation. 

Todd: That’s it.

Cool. So let’s turn the thought around. I need to think of something interesting to say.

Client: I don’t ’cause I can stay quiet if I choose to, if I don’t have something to add. When I’m, when I think rationally about it, I don’t think that there’s like an interesting award at the end of the group meeting like. I, it, I don’t have to be more interesting than anybody else, or as interesting as anybody else. They’re just rambling sometimes, it’s 

Todd: absolutely.

Client: So I don’t have to have something interesting to say. I can just [00:25:00] talk, just participate. Just stay on the subject. It doesn’t have to be interesting. 

Todd: It’s just my 

Client: thought. It’s just, it is, think of it as sharing myself comparatively to what? Worrying about what they’re thinking of my conversation or my reply or Right.

Interjection.

Todd: Exactly. It doesn’t have to be interesting. 

It’s just an exchange. It’s a. Your presence there. You’re, maybe you’re saying something, maybe you’re not. Maybe it’s interesting, maybe it’s not, but there’s a group dynamic happening there and I don’t need to think of something interesting to say to be the one that everyone says, oh wow.

Yeah. Great job. She’s so interesting. She, so interesting. Yeah. She gets the interesting [00:26:00] award at the end.

Client: So I don’t need to think of something interesting to say because what I think other people say I can’t know, like in that sense, like what they’re saying I may find interesting or not interesting. Like they don’t know 

Todd: right. 

Client: So I can’t know, even if I come up with the most, what I think is the most original, interesting interjection into this conversation, other people could just be like I’ve thought of that before.

I’ve done that before. Like it’s no big deal. So I can never know what somebody else really thinks is interesting or not 

Todd: exactly. I have to get way into their business. Which I can’t even know. To try to guess what will be interesting. That’s what makes trying to find something interesting, hard, right?

Because I’m trying to figure [00:27:00] out what’s gonna be interesting for them, and then I get all tangled as a result. 

Even just interesting for me is I’m getting tangled, right? But let alone then if I try to figure out what’s gonna be interesting for them, that’s crazy. Instead of just.

Whatever comes outta my mouth, right?

Even if that’s nothing,

oh, I don’t need to think of something interesting to say. Any other reasons why that could be true?

Client: It’s certainly not as critical as it feels. It’s, it’s there’s no [00:28:00] benefit or loss. Nothing’s really gonna change. The group meeting is gonna end. And everybody’s gonna go back on with their lives. There’s no consequence of saying something that’s not interesting, right?

I’m not gonna get kicked out of the group like, no soup for you. It’s no group for you. Because I said something that didn’t live up to their expectations. They I feel like it’s critical when I’m thinking that thought, something’s something. Depending on it, where in reality it’s, there’s nothing depending on anything that I say.

Todd: Exactly.

And what I love about listening, being a listener instead of a speaker, is that. It’s such a service to those who do have interesting things to say. They get to be heard, and I get to hear interesting things. It’s [00:29:00] almost there’s almost a turnaround in there about I need to listen to interesting things other people say.

Maybe that’s the turnaround. Enjoy. Other people, what other people are saying.

So yeah. How about, so for you any examples for that turnaround or any other turnarounds that would resonate with you?

Client: Yeah. ’cause most of the time I feel like I spend a lot of time by myself, so I am very well aware of what I think, so it’s like hearing other people is very interesting to me. 

Todd: I love it. So it’s like I don’t need to hear my own voice interest being, because 

Client: I hear it all the time. I hear myself [00:30:00] talking all the time, 

Todd: right?

Client: So it’s good for me just to listen. It’s a pleasure to listen to other people talk. 

Todd: You get new ideas, to get new perspectives, and you don’t have to come up with anything. There’s no pressure in it. It’s easy. And like most of those interesting ideas I’ve had I’ve already had them and I’ve thought of them myself.

I already enjoyed them. They’re not saying ’em again. They’re not that interesting anymore to me. But listening new stuff comes in

and sometimes what I find is listening to new things coming in. Gives me idea. Somehow I spontaneously come up with something new from my own side too, right? So I do end up saying something, but I wasn’t trying to say something. It was just like, oh, that’s really cool, and then, oh, and that reminds me of, and like that,

Client: [00:31:00] yeah.

Todd: Which is exactly the way I am when I’m on one-on-one with somebody. Like back and forth like you described. 

What is it about being in a group that makes us think that we’re on stage and we have to entertain and that we have to have a script and we have to have, make people laugh and is that really true?

Client: Yeah. They didn’t buy a ticket to come see me. It’s like I don’t owe them anything, it’s like there’s no pressure of performing because there’s been a monetary exchange here. 

Todd: Exactly.

So that leaves me free to say nothing. To listen to say something if I feel moved to free instead of pressurized to do something that I don’t know how to do. That’s [00:32:00] stressful. 

Client: Yes.

Todd: Cool. I’m breathing deeper. Just thank really nice. Yeah, me too. I’m like, I’m just noticing even how I’m talking in this interaction and I’m going nice not to have a plan here. Just, I don’t know if I’ll say something dumb or something interesting or say nothing at all, or, and it’s all okay. Yeah.

Even with other people watching. Yeah, that’s, there’s freedom in that.

Client: And then your mind is clear to actually say something like you said, new, that you don’t have to bore yourself,

Todd: exactly. And what I notice is I’m take, I take more space. There’s more because I’m not trying to fill the space with [00:33:00] more words just to say something. There’s more space in my timing.

It allows me to settle into myself again. And from there, who knows what comes out. Again, something unexpected and that is interesting,

but it doesn’t have to be, that’s the interesting point about it. Yeah.

If you would like to participate in open sessions like the one we just heard now. Then go to the work as meditation.com and you’ll find a page there for open sessions and you can see the schedule. There are different times on different days to try to accommodate different time zones and different schedules.

If the time zones seem to work out for you, then you may want to register and sign the release form, and then you’ll have access when you sign in to actually sign up for these [00:34:00] sessions. While you’re at the work as meditation.com, I also encourage you to check out my book called Finding the Door to Inquiry.

Sometimes the hardest part of doing the work is figuring out what is the stress that’s actually bothering you. And so I have a whole book on this and it’s, there are a lot of details, a lot of ideas of how you can approach this. And you’ll find this again at the work as meditation.com, under.

Finding the door to inquiry, or you can just look under book in the footer.

Next, I’m gonna read one of my newsletter articles called The Work is Not An Intellectual Exercise.

Intellectual means Mechanical Detached from emotion. Intellectual is dry. Have you ever had what I like to call intellectual food? You [00:35:00] see this kind of stuff at health food stores, for example, health food store cookies taste like sawdust to me. Who wants to eat that crap? A lot of healthy quote unquote healthy food is actually just intellectual.

I don’t buy it or think of atonal music. I heard a guitar performance like this when I was in college. It was awful. There was no emotion at all just making noise, in my opinion, purely intellectual. Sometimes people think the work is intellectual. The work of Byron Katie, of course, is as you see it, if you bring only your intellect to the work, you’ll experience a very dry intellectual process.

But if you bring your raw emotion to it. You’ll be touched to the core by the work. At first, the work looks like just some intellectual ju, but it’s [00:36:00] not. The work is an experience. Here’s what it looks like. You start with a stressful emotion. This is the anchor point. This is what roots the work in the heart in direct experience.

If you’re dealing with something real, when you bring a stressful emotion to the work, it’s deeply connected to you. Then you identify the thought associated with the emotion. This moves up to the intellect, but remains connected to the emotion. A bridge between mind and heart is found. Then you question the thought associated with the emotion.

Because the emotion and the thought are intimately connected. When you move one, you move the other. That’s how the work works. When doing the work, you play with the thought. You transform your thinking, and because the thought is connected to the emotion gets transformed too. [00:37:00] That’s what keeps it real.

This is very different from doing a crossword puzzle or a Sudoku game, which used the intellect but are not connected to an emotion. These are just intellectual play. The work moves the emotions with each twist and turn of the intellect. That’s what makes it feel powerful to do the work. That’s how it changes lives.

The work is an experience. The work is a way to re-experience any stressful situation firsthand. When I do the work, I’m literally walking through a stressful situation and re-experiencing it anew. This changes my whole understanding of it. This gives me a whole new experience of it. I’m getting clear about what actually happened as opposed to holding my previously limited story about [00:38:00] it.

As I see that there is more to it than what I thought. My emotions shift from stress towards peace, but you have to walk through it. It’s easy to say, yeah, I get it. I was confused there without really re-experiencing it, even though I quote unquote get it intellectually. The images that my mind plays when I think of the stressful situation have not changed, and my emotions are generated from those images.

When I walk through the four questions of the work and find turnarounds and examples, the images I had of that situation actually change. I don’t see it the same way now. I see it much more clearly, and my new images are not stressful. So now when I rem, when I remember the scene, I’m not stressed by it.

This [00:39:00] new experience doesn’t come from intellectually quote unquote getting it. It comes from walking through it meditatively and re-experiencing the same scene with a new perspective. This is why the work is not intellectual. Sure, it uses the intellect, but what it is really doing is transforming direct experience.

Which is never dry or intellectual. I invite you to step out of the safety of your intellect and dive into the experience of doing the work. Walk yourself through this process on the experiential level. That’s when it can really touch you and do yourself a favor. Leave those health foods to our cookies on the shelf.

Here’s a quote from Byron Katie from her book, A Mind at Home with Itself to simply turn thoughts around, keeps the process [00:40:00] intellectual and is of little value. The invitation is to go beyond the intellect. The questions are like probes that dive into the mind, bringing deeper knowledge to the surface.

Ask the questions first, and then wait. Once the answers have arisen, the superficial mind and the deeper mind meet and the turnarounds feel like true discoveries.