How HSPs Can Cope When a Loved One Stops Talking to Them (Without Overwhelming Guilt)

Todd: [00:00:00] As much as you may appreciate the work of Byron Katie and this process of self-inquiry, it can sometimes be challenging to turn it into a kind of meditative practice, something that you’ll do on a regular basis, and then gain the benefit of on a regular basis. One of the ways to get into a practice like this and to kind of jumpstart that is to.

To attend one of my virtual retreats. This is a weekend course. You can come to as many or as few of the sessions as you like, but it gives you a lot of experience of doing the work. You get to work with partners, you get to work with me, you get to ask questions, and this kind of intensive experience for a couple of days can make the.

The desire more for doing the work and can kind of begin, uh, a practice for you as you move after the retreat. So if you’re interested in attending one of these virtual retreats, go to the work as [00:01:00] meditation.com and then go to virtual retreats and you’ll see there are four of them per year. And you can join in on any of my,

Client: but then that started to bothering me. Because like there’s a comparison that I have almost every day with my mother-in-law. My, my wife talks to her almost every day, so it’s almost inevitable for me to compare my situation with hers. 

Todd: Welcome to Wiggle Room, a podcast where we start with stress and look for ways to turn it around.

And we use something called the work of Byron Katie. This is a simple way of taking any stressful thought that you may be having and questioning it in a very systematic way. I’m Todd Smith and on the program today, a participant in one of my open session [00:02:00] does the work on the stressful thought. My mother stopped talking to me.

I found this to be a moving piece of work and something that, uh, really shows how this work works in a very, uh, clear way. So the bulk of the session is gonna be that piece of work. And then once that is done, I will be reading the, uh, newsletter article, which I wrote called When Being Helpful, is Self-Indulgent.

So let’s dive into the work of Byron to Katie together. It’s a simple, powerful way to question what you think. And we’ll start now with the recording of the open session. Of this piece of work, and I always share the unedited recordings so that you can experience the work just as it happens. It’s not, it’s not polished, it’s not perfect, it’s just, it’s just as we show up, which is the way I love to do the work.[00:03:00] 

Client: Yeah. Todd, I would like to do the work. 

Todd: Okay, great. Yeah, 

Client: so the situation is with my mom, I. I used to have like good relationship, like when I was growing up, but then everything turned like sideways when I started to be a teenager and all that stuff. And it never got like good again. It was just like bad and bad.

And then it came to the point where, um, for whatever situation that I was going through, she stopped talking to me. And it’s, it’s a weird thing because before I would think that that’s actually a good thing in a way because, you know, I’m just letting her do whatever she wants to do and I, I can do whatever I wanna do without worrying about her inputs or anything like that.[00:04:00] 

But then that started to bothering me because like, there’s a comparison that I have almost every day. I. With my mother-in-law, my, my wife talks to her almost every day, so it’s almost inevitable for me to compare my situation with hers. And it’s like I see that they have such a good relationship and they talk about anything and it’s, it’s, it’s good.

And then I compare it to mine, like it’s, it’s not good at all. So, so yeah, I think I.

That thought that it’s been like coming over and over. I’m trying to like push away, but it’s like I’m angry with my mom because she stopped talking to me. Okay. Because she literally, like, we were on WhatsApp group and like she blocked me and that was it. And that happened like a few [00:05:00] months ago. I don’t even recall how many, but it’s been, yeah, it’s been like a few year, few months.

So, yeah, I like to question that. 

Todd: Okay. Let’s do it. So your mother stopped talking to you. Is it true?

Client: Yes. 

Todd: And can you absolutely know it’s true. She stopped talking to you?

Client: Yeah, that one is very clear ’cause she’s the one that blocked me, so, yeah. 

Todd: Okay. 

Client: Yeah. 

Todd: So how do you react when you think your mother stopped talking 

Client: to you? 

Todd: I.

Client: I kind of get confused because I have like a [00:06:00] battle going inside of me where I think that’s better because like our relationship is not the greatest. So there’s always like arguments involved and all that kind of stuff. So it’s, it’s, I don’t think it’s healthy. So in a way I say like, oh, it’s better that she stopped talking because then we’re not gonna have an argument and she can have her life and whatever she wants to do, she can do and all that stuff.

And I can do the same, but at the same time, I, the other side of me is fighting and like, but that’s not the way it should be. Like you should be able to get back to a healthy relationship and like just talk and. Have a regular mother and son conversation and relationship. So see, I feel like frustrated because of that.

And I don’t know, I get lost because I don’t know what to do like I [00:07:00] tried before, like to talk to her and have a relationship and it’s kind of one of those things where you, everything starts like in a good node. Because I have a desire of having a good relationship towards her, but like the relationship starts going down and down until it’s, it gets toxic again.

And it’s not good for me at all because I start getting angry and, and mad and, and I wouldn’t say anything, but like my attitude changes and everything like starts to fall apart. It feels like in my. Personal life with my wife and my kids and all that stuff, so I know it’s unhealthy. So I don’t know, it’s really weird and I feel like out of place and I feel like the comparison is the one that’s killing me.

Comparing my [00:08:00] wife’s relationship with her mother and mine is like, I kind of beat up myself because of that too. Like I feel like, oh, I should have had. A better relationship as well. You know, like I should have handled it better or I should like, take more hits in a way and have more patience and all that kind of stuff.

So yeah, it gets, it gets tough and I, I just don’t know what to do. I just feel lost and I don’t know if I should give her a call and try to get everything back to normal. Having those kind of. The situations and, and do that. Or just not do it at all. But then like the thought comes back and it’s like one day I’ll think like, okay, it’s better to live it this way for now until she feels like, okay, it’s time for us to talk again.

But then my thinking starts like fighting again. It’s like, oh, but you should [00:09:00] have a good relationship with her. So it’s like I feel like I’m constantly battling that. I forget about it and it’s all good. And then I listen to my wife talking to her mom, and it’s like it comes back. It’s like a daily reminder of that situation.

Like, oh, there’s some unsolved business that I need to take care of, and I’m like trying to push it away, or something like that. So yeah, I feel powerless in a way too, because I’ve tried to do that before and it doesn’t end well. So. I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know what to do. Like I just feel that I’m lost in the middle of somewhere and there are no directions where to go.

Like, so just questioning myself. Should I do this or should I not do it? And having, trying to find that balance, it’s not easy at all. Like I’m totally lost in [00:10:00] there, in that kind of middle. 

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. So you described your reaction so thoroughly and, and so clearly. Um, yeah.

Who would you be without the thought that she stopped talking to you? And this is always a tricky one because we’re dealing with a fact here, right? She did stop talking to you, so, so when we’re questioning a fact, you have to hold this question a little more lightly. Who would you be without the thought?

She stopped talking to me. So we’re not trying to deny the fact that. You know, she blocked you on, on WhatsApp, uh, and hasn’t talked to you since for some months, but who would you be if you weren’t so strongly focused on that idea that she 

Client: stopped talking [00:11:00] to you?

Hmm.

I can see that. I would feel lighter. In a weird way, the situation like goes away from from that WhatsApp thing to a more open one. Meaning I can still call her like it is not that she blocked me out of everything and I can’t have any contact with her at all. So I just realized that that. Because she blocked me in there doesn’t mean that I can’t talk to her at all.

So it feels freeing in a way.

Hmm.[00:12:00] 

Yeah. It feels like I have control that, control that I lost when I was thinking that she blocked me. I. And I couldn’t talk to her even if I wanted to, like, without the thought, I’m back in control because of that same reason, because I can give her a call. I could even grab my wife’s phone and talk to her if I wanted to.

So they’re, they’re like options. Before it was just like blocked. Okay, I’ll have to wait until. She unblocks me or decides to talk to me again,

and I can see,

hmm,

I can’t see, like there’s something going on with [00:13:00] the responsibility of that fact not being on me.

So that’s interesting because I wasn’t the one that blocked her at all. She just blocked me out of nowhere pretty much. So there was nothing that happened that I said something to her or something like that.

So that. Guiltiness that maybe I was feeling because I was thinking that it’s not there. When I look at it that way,

it’s more, there’s more acceptance to what happened and like the fact that maybe she needed, she needs some time to talk to me again, or she felt that she needed to be away for whatever reason.[00:14:00] 

So, yeah, I feel like more understanding about what happened and I see like myself detaching from that a little bit and not feeling responsible for that, which is kind of what I was feeling before when I, when I, when I’m fully to that, it’s, it’s like on me, it’s my responsibility. I should have done that differently or whatever, but without the thought, I’m not the one who did it.

So,

so that’s interesting. It opens up a lot of different possibilities too. And it, it even opens up the possibility of me talking to her, even though I know she doesn’t wanna talk to me, or I don’t know if she wants to talk to me, she blocks me. But that doesn’t mean. She doesn’t wanna talk to me at all. [00:15:00] So yeah, it gets more open.

Mm-hmm. And it frees me up from that guilt that I was perhaps not feeling intentionally or I was not even aware that I was there, that it was there, and I go back to me and what I can do and what I can control. Just like I said, I can give her a call. I could text her from my wife’s phone if I wanted to, just to see how she’s doing or whatever.

So that feels, that feels great. I’m not like trapped not in there. 

Todd: Yeah. What gives that feeling of trapped ness. Is the thought. She stopped talking to me. And when you’re focused on that, then it’s [00:16:00] like, like you described powerless. ’cause you just see that closed door can’t do anything. She stopped talking to me and there’s nothing you can do without that thought, even though she did stop talking to you.

If you don’t have the thought, it’s not, if you’re not focused on that. Then all these other possibilities start to open and it feels less stuck. So that thought is what gives that experience of feeling powerless and stuck. She stopped talking to me. So let’s try turning the thought around just to see what options are there.

So she stopped talking to me. What would a turnaround for that thought be?

Client: I stopped talking to her. 

Todd: Okay. So how could that be as true?[00:17:00] 

Client: Hmm. It’s actually true because even though she blocked me. I could still call her and I didn’t do it. So that’s 100% true. I could have done it at any point, and I, and I haven’t done it, so. Right. 

Todd: You took her stopping talking to you as, oh, now, now I can’t talk to her. So you just didn’t talk to her anymore, but that was your conclusion, right?

That was your, your action. 

Client: Right. Like what, what you mentioned before, it’s like I was talking like I feel like it, it’s a door that is closed and I’m just focused on that door, like one feet away from it and I’m not seeing anything else and I’m just waiting for her to open the door. That’s exactly how I feel like in there.

Just waiting and waiting. It’s like I can [00:18:00] do anything else, but if I see it from the other side, it’s like, oh, there’s not only a door. There’s a whole house. I can go into, like, I can still go to the kitchen or I can go around it and go outside.

That’s interesting. Yeah, 

Todd: this is like, like laser vision. I’m only focused on that one door, the WhatsApp door. Like the only way to communicate with my mother is through WhatsApp and she blocked me. So what can I do? So I’m blocked. Hi. 

Client: Yeah. In my head, I, I stopped talking to her also because in my mind I was like, just being like the, the devil’s lawyer in a way.

When you say like, okay, they’re doing this to me. I’ll just do the same. So if they stop talking to me, I’ll just stop talking to them. So [00:19:00] it. 

Todd: It happens automatically. It happens so quickly because what is it? It’s reaction, right? She stopped talking to me, how do I react? When I think she stopped talking to me, I stopped talking to her.

It’s like a, it’s a reaction. So it happens so quickly. I don’t even know that I’m doing it. But that is when you slow it down and look at it, that’s what’s actually happening here. You stopped talking to her just as much as she stopped talking 

Client: to you, right?

So interesting. Yeah. 

Todd: Which means that if you become aware of that, you have the choice, you may decide to continue not talking to her because you just prefer not to. Or if you want to, you, you, you could explore other ways of communicating with her. Hmm.[00:20:00] 

You’re not, you’re not powerless. In other words. ’cause the original thought is, she stopped talking to me and there’s nothing I can do about it. I’m, I’m powerless. But we’re not seeing that. It’s like, no, no. I stopped talking to her also, and that means I could start talking to her again if I wanted to.

Client: Right. That break that gives me that power back. When I was not feeling of just making a decision if I wanted to do it or not. Yeah. And not leaving on living it on her to decide if she wants to do it, so, yeah, 

Todd: exactly. Exactly. That’s like the easy way. Like I’ll just leave it all on her, you know? And then, but in the meantime, I’m suffering here because, uh, I’m stuck.

I’m. Yeah. So when I, when I take that power back, or I realize that I still have that power, now I have the choice. I might decide, oh, you know, [00:21:00] I’d like to just, just continue with some non-communication and, and enjoy that. Maybe that’s fine to enjoy that. Right? Or I might say, you know, Hmm, I’m wanting to reach out.

And then I find if I do that. That’s, that’s freedom. Even with a closed door, WhatsApp door closed, you can’t, it’s, you’re blocked. It’s that door’s closed. But even with a closed door, there’s still freedom. That’s what the work brings in, is that I still have choice. I’m still, I’m not powerless. 

Client: Hmm.

Todd: I mean, it’s like if somebody dies, I can’t talk to them, but I might still be able to talk to them. Right? There’s so many ways, 

Client: right? It’s only you putting the limit in there and believing the thought that blocks you from seeing everything else around it. [00:22:00] 

Todd: That’s it. We become hypnotized by the thought.

She stopped talking to me, and so now I’m just hypnotized. I can’t even, I can’t think of anything else. I’m, I’m totally, yeah. Everything is decided. It’s done, and I’m, and I’m, I have no choice. Right. So is there another turnaround? She stopped talking to me.

Let’s see.

Client: I’m not seeing any obvious one. Do you see one? 

Todd: I see one. Yeah. I stopped talking to me. 

Client: Hmm. Right.[00:23:00] 

Wow, that’s so true. Even in this situation, I just completely forgot about it. And it’s true.

It’s so true. Because I focus, just like I mentioned before, I was just like in that door, I. Just one inch away from it, just waiting for her to open up that I forgot about what I want to do, or how I feel, or what I think about the situation. Just keep going. Hmm.

Wow.

That’s so freeing.[00:24:00] 

I stopped. Not only, I was just like not thinking about me at all, but I also forgot about whether, what other opportunities I have. Like the, the options that we talked about before that I didn’t have, but not related to her, but actually to me, like you mentioned, you can talk to her or not. But now going into this question, it’s like, what do I want to do?

And having that power back brings me back to myself, which I forgot in the whole situation. 

Todd: Yeah. Yeah, that question, what do I want to do? That’s me talking to me. That’s me asking me a question. What do I want to do? That’s an and when I really engage with that, then I start to have that conversation with [00:25:00] myself, and then I can kind of decide, oh, maybe I want to talk to her, or maybe I don’t want to talk to her, or whatever.

Right? It doesn’t matter what the outcome is, it’s the conversation I’m having with myself. This starts to make me feel like, yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m heard, I’m, I, I can listen to myself. I can, I can find out what I want. 

Client: Hmm. That’s so cool. Because it makes me think also about not putting too much thinking into it.

You know, just like talk, if you wanna talk and don’t talk if you don’t wanna talk, just like. I notice when I put too much thinking into it, like, oh, what is going to happen in that? And I go to that future or what could happen. It’s like I’m predisposing myself to whatever she may say or or not, and that may not even happen at all.

Todd: [00:26:00] Exactly. You’re, you’re putting an idea of what it should, should happen, right? Right. We should talk and, and you have this idea of it’s good if we’re talking, it’s bad if we’re not talking, and so, but if you didn’t have this, these, these are all related thoughts, you can question. But if you, if they weren’t there, then you can just literally ask yourself, do I want to.

Talk with her or not. And if it’s not just great, okay, perfect. And if it is, great, okay, perfect. Where do I, how do I talk to her? Like that’s the only missing thing. But what happens is when she stops talking to me. I stopped talking to myself. I just become like, you know, like at a tension, you know, like, don’t you know?

Oh, she stop talking to me. I better just freeze and don’t do anything. Now I, now I’m lost. I can’t even access myself. [00:27:00] 

Hmm.

Client: That’s so cool. It makes me even like, think about. Being selfish going back to me in a way of mm-hmm. Doing it for me. You know, like mm-hmm. If, if I wanna feel a little bit better or if I just wanna do it, don’t think about the other person involved, whoever that is, in this case, my mob, but don’t think about it.

Just think about like, oh, I wanna, I want to get that, I want to have a better feeling of like, oh, I talked to her so I feel better about that. And just being selfish about that simple part. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Client: Without like thinking about the outcome or whatever that happens. Exactly. 

Todd: It’s a, it’s a, a kind of a good kind of selfish, you know, where it’s, it’s like when, when you’re not in their business, that kind of [00:28:00] selfish, right?

I’m just in my own business, not in their business. So I’m not worried about what they’re going to think or anything. It’s just what feels right to me. That’s me talking to myself and that’s me staying in my own business. And that feels free. It feels good.

That’s always available. That’s the amazing thing that’s always available even when somebody blocks me.

It’s, I just forget that it’s available. ’cause I’m so hypnotized by that blocking that I can only think about the blocking and I’m just like, uh, uh, uh, I can’t breathe until that door gets unblocked. But the, there was so much here. That’s what we’re discovering. It’s even if she completely blocks me, I can sit with myself and.

Ask myself, what do I wanna do? It’s that simple. 

Yeah.[00:29:00] 

Client: That’s so cool. And it’s just an app. It’s not, it’s not even the whole phone, right? It’s just an app. Right, 

Todd: exactly. She just closed one door out of an infinite number of doors, and then I just take it as I can’t do anything, so Right.

Client: I think you described it well. The freezing, it’s just like you feel like you can’t do anything at all because they, she decided to do that, so I’m frozen until she decides otherwise. And I forget that I have the power to unfreeze myself 

Todd: and do anything else. Who gave her that power? You gave her that, you know?

Right. So that’s, it happened out of reaction. So it just happened unconsciously, quickly and just gave her the power. But the more [00:30:00] you become conscious of it, then the more you realize, oh, I don’t have to give her all that power. The I can respect she closed the door, but I also have a lot of options here.

Client: Yeah. 

Todd: And just that process for me of, of asking myself, what do I wanna do like that, like we were just saying, that’s me conversing with myself. Just that process. Begin something beautiful inside of myself. ’cause I’m asking myself this open question and then I have to sit and listen and I have to listen for something.

It’s like a feeling comes up from inside there. And when I start listening to that feeling, whatever it is, I. It’s going to give me more direction, more clarity, but just the process of asking myself and listening to that feeling is so beautiful. It feels like connection. It feels like I. It feels like I’m home.[00:31:00] 

So it’s exactly what we do in when we’re asking these questions in the work, right? But it’s the same thing, just in, in life. Oh, what do I wanna do? And then really waiting, taking my time to find out. It might be days or months before I get an answer, doesn’t matter, right? But that’s the conversation I’m having with myself, and it can be a very enjoyable kind of conversation.

Nobody blocked it,

so that’s great. Let’s see if there’s another turnaround. Um, she stopped talking to me.

What’s the very opposite of she stopped talking to me.

She didn’t, she did not [00:32:00] stop talking to me. So here we are dealing with a fact, right? We know it’s true and we’re questioning it anyway. And that’s what we do in the work sometimes is just question it anyway. See, is there any wiggle room? Is there any anything? Right? So is it possible that. That she didn’t stop talking to you, even though she did stop talking to you?

I don’t know. I’m just asking the question. 

Client: Hmm.

It’s weird, but it goes back to what you just mentioned there. Like I’m the one giving her that power. If I don’t give her that power. She didn’t stop talking to me. Yeah. Wow, that’s, that’s a huge one too. Who has the power here, right? Yeah. 

Todd: You concluded that she stopped [00:33:00] talking to you because she blocked you on WhatsApp, but who knows?

And maybe it’s true, but that was a conclusion that you made. 

Client: Right? But if I don’t give her that power, I. Like even if you stop talking to somebody and they come talk to you, you have to say something back. Even if it’s a yes or a no, whatever. So that’s not, that’s not literally stop 

Todd: talking, right? You didn’t test the theory.

She stopped talking to you. Maybe it’s true, but you never actually tested it to see maybe she will, if you say, Hey, are you not talking to me? She’ll say, yes, I’m not talking to you. Okay, so she’s talking to me. 

Client: Right. Wow, that’s so interesting. But it goes back to that power. ’cause I think obviously because she’s my mom, that connection of, of you being a child and your [00:34:00] mom telling you don’t do something like it’s, it’s still there.

Right. So it’s gonna be there your whole life. Yes. So in my brain, it kind of made that connection. So that totally makes sense. And me giving her that power to keep doing that, even though. She doesn’t, obviously she doesn’t have it anymore like that. As I was a kid, like, 

Todd: it’s like, it is like she trained you, right.

You know, parents train their kids. When you say no, then you just don’t do anything and then Right. Don’t touch that. You, you freeze. Yeah, totally. Don’t, don’t touch that. And then you’re like, oh, you freeze and you don’t do anything. And, and they trained you to do that because it’s good for, you know, keeping the order in the house.

But it’s, uh, it’s like. As you become adult, more and more like, it doesn’t have to be absolute. I don’t have to be like the perfect child just saying when she says no, then I shut off completely and [00:35:00] I give her only all the power. No, we start to become adults to adults together and we share the power and that’s like a different thing than being only a child.

Client: Right. That’s so cool.

Yeah. And that makes me realize also that I can talk to her even if she doesn’t wanna talk to me. You’re free. 

Todd: That’s 

Client: right. I have the power back. We’re 

Todd: believing that you were not free because she said, don’t talk to me, or she blocked you, and so you assumed that means she says, don’t talk to me, then you.

You can’t, you’re, you think you’re not free to talk to her, but you are. You could talk to her. You have the Right, right. Yeah. She may not listen to you. That’s her business, but you can talk to her if you want to. Yeah. Do my part. That’s it. [00:36:00] 

Mm-hmm. Wow. 

Todd: So she didn’t stop talking to me like we’re not sure really.

It’s not absolute. 

Client: Just like you said was a big one too. She didn’t say, don’t talk to me ever, or Don’t say anything. She just blocked me. So that’s a different thing even and even if you say it in the heat of a moment, it doesn’t really mean fully what you’re saying, so That’s right. That’s right. 

Todd: It might be truer that she reacted to something and closed that door.

It doesn’t necessarily mean she 

Client: doesn’t ever want to hear me again.

Yeah. So these are all examples of, she didn’t stop talking to me, even though it looks like she did.

Yeah. [00:37:00] So this is all 

Todd: still just. The world of possibilities and, and we don’t know for sure anything, but just playing with these possibilities softens the feeling. That’s, that’s, that’s what happens when we do the work. And then, and then you’ll, you’ll find out, you know, you’ll. You can start talking to yourself and finding out what you want to do.

And then, and then if you end up talking with her, then you’ll find out what she wants or doesn’t want and, and yeah, no problem. So some of the underlying beliefs that can be questioned relating to this is like, um, I should have a good relationship with her, right? I. Or I should have a relationship like my mother-in-law has with my wife, right?

Um, [00:38:00] and, and this is not the way it’s supposed to be, right? We should be back to a regular relationship. We or those self blames. I should be more patient or it’s my responsibility. Um, or even just she doesn’t want to talk to me. Right. That’s an, that’s an underlying belief. So all of these kind of things that came up while we were working, they can be different pieces of the puzzle.

You can, you can do the work on some of those as well, but, um, yeah, I think a lot, a lot of cool. Insight just in this piece of work just now. So thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Yeah. If you would like to participate in open sessions, like the one that we heard just now, I. Then go to the work as meditation.com and then open sessions, and you’ll be [00:39:00] able to see the schedule there, sign up and participate.

And I always love to have new people come in. I love to have people bring any kind of question and also people that have been doing the work for a long time. So come on in and I look forward to working with you in an O Open session. I also wanna mention work one. Oh. In depth. Program for learning the work of Byron Katie, and this is an online program.

It has 45 lessons and you can go at your own pace. You can work completely independently or work with a trainer or even work with me. There’s different, uh, different ways of taking the course, but I wanna encourage you to check out the work 1 0 1 by going to the work as meditation.com and reading all the details there.

It’s something that if you want to. Really get into the practice of the work of Byron Katie. This is a way to, um, to, to really go [00:40:00] deeply into it, to begin a habit and a practice over, um, many days, uh, or weeks, uh, or even months. And this is something that, uh, has been at the center of what I offer for a very long time.

So go to the work as meditation.com and then the.

Next, I’m gonna read one of my newsletter articles, and this is called When Being Helpful is Self-Indulgent.

A street sign simply points out options. It doesn’t get in the car and drive you there when being helpful is self-indulgent. Many of us are drawn to the helping professions because we like to help people. It is satisfying to serve in this way and to see real changes as a result of this service, but it’s easy to cross a line.

Being helpful feels good when I [00:41:00] remain in my own business as I serve. But if I cross over into the other person’s business, it becomes stressful for both sides. This comes up when doing the work of Byron Katie with a partner. It’s helpful to be there for someone when they’re stressed, to listen with compassion, and to ask them the four questions and turnarounds of the work of Byron Katie.

In all of these actions, I stay in my own business and it feels good and free on both sides, but if I start to do the work for my partner or I try to get them to see what I’m seeing, I’m actually interfering and it feels stressful. The work is meditation. By definition. Meditation is something you do by yourself.

It’s an internal process of accessing the quieter parts of the mind and tapping into more of the wisdom and peace that resides there. Even if you do the work with a partner, it’s still a solo [00:42:00] process. The reason is that no one can access those quieter parts of yourself, but you. And if someone has done similar work and tells you what they found, it’s not a meditation for you.

It’s more like reading a book, getting external knowledge. It’s not the same. Life is lived from the inside out. So after doing the work, when faced with a similar stressful situation, it doesn’t matter how much book learning you’ve done on the subject. You will react based solely on your inner world, a world often beyond the conscious mind to touch the inner world.

I have to respect it to shift this inner field of being and seeing. I have to approach it with respect. Manipulation doesn’t work here. There has to be genuine listening, genuine asking, and lots of patience to let that inner wisdom come forth in a way that truly changes behavior. [00:43:00] I can’t rush it when doing my own work, and I certainly can’t rush it for someone else.

All I can do is keep holding on to the signpost. Have you checked over there? This is what the four questions and turnarounds of the work do. Someone, or Oh, when you’re facilitating someone, uh, the job is to keep inviting them to go there and explore with them themselves. It’s like, Hey, have you looked over there?

Have you checked in this area? Have you looked at this turnaround? That’s what the work does and this is respect, this is respectful. Um, ’cause it’s allowing the person to take that question and then use it to find what they find. And this allows for the possibility of firsthand discovery, not secondhand discovery, not book learning, but firsthand discovery, and that is truly being helpful.

What is not helpful is that it’s not helpful to. [00:44:00] Kind of miss the point that meditation is the sole responsibility of the meditator. When I forget that I barge in to kind of save the day, and it ends up sounding like teaching or pushing or pontificating even. It is like when someone is reading a good book or watching a good show, do you want, uh, do they want you to come in and tell them the ending?

No. That ruins it for them, and it would be purely self-indulgent if, if I did that. It’s not helpful at all. They want to go through the whole thing themselves and discover on their own the same ending that you want to describe to them. That’s when it touches them, that’s when it’s theirs. That’s when it’s coming more from inside.

That’s when it’s experiential rather than just intellectual. It matters not what the insight is in doing the work, but how it’s discovered. Other than allowing the person to, to [00:45:00] discover their own, uh, insights is kind of a form of interrupting their meditation. One exception. There are rare times when two minds are joined so closely and the trust is so high between the two that for all intents and purposes, it is functioning as one mind.

You see this frequently, frequently with people doing the work of Byron Katie. Because of that huge amount of mutual respect and trust, it matters less Who discovers what? One person’s discovery is also the discovery of the other. In this case, interruptions are not really interruptions. It’s a special kind of free flow, and it touches both hearts simultaneously and equally deeply.

This too is meditation, but it is the exception, not the rule. Want to practice the art of spoken work. Join us for two [00:46:00] weeks. Uh, two, join us for two days or a full weekend, um, for a virtual retreat and you’ll get a chance to not only do the work for many times with a partner, but you’ll also get a chance to discuss your experiences with the group and refine your ability to hold somebody in the work.

And the better you’re able to hold someone else in the work, the better you’ll be able to hold yourself in this meditative practice. So I’ll end with a quote from Byron Katie. When someone is facilitating the work, giving the four questions he’s receiving at another level, what I originally received in me, if he’s really facilitating from a neutral position without any motive, then he is in the place where I am on the other side.

It just gains in its freedom. It’s in or out, unlimited.