Coping with Stressful Conversations: Inner Work for Highly Sensitive People

Todd: [00:00:00] By the end of this episode, you’ll discover how the way you view someone’s insensitivity in conversation makes all the difference on your stress level.

Todd: Welcome to Stress Management for Highly Sensitive People, a podcast helping HSPs avoid overwhelm, eliminate stress, and find true inner freedom. I’m your host Todd Smith, a facilitator of the work of Byron Katie, a way to question and reduce stressful thoughts. And you guessed it, I’m a highly sensitive person myself.

Todd: In this episode, you’ll discover how to soften your protective stance when someone is insensitive in conversation, why thoughts like, he should think before talking only make it worse, and how to gently change your [00:01:00] perspective to experience someone’s insensitivity with a more open heart. Today is another edition of Open Session Wednesdays.

Todd: You bring your questions and stressful situations, and I facilitate you in the simple, powerful process of the work of Byron Katie. As always, I share the unedited recording so you can experience the open session just as we did.

Client: I would like to do the work on one thing that happened today. Okay, recent enough.

Client: I think that would help. Sounds good.

Todd: I love the present moment. The recent ones are so fresh in your mind.

Client: Yeah. So the background of it is like, we have a festival here in the city, like every year. And it’s been like that for, I don’t know, 58 years or something like that. So it goes back way. Like since I was a kid, basically, since I can remember, and then earlier today, I had a [00:02:00] call with my dad when he was mentioning that and how boring it was and like, it was like repeated all the time.

Client: And like, yeah, you get tired because of traffic and then my mind took me to like my younger self when I was a kid, not going there at all. Like, I just remember being there just once for like a brief moment and that was it. And then I said something like, Oh, that’s because you’ve been there a lot, but not me.

Client: So that like, that brought me back to that moment. It’s like, ah, he should think about what he says before he says something, or that was like, kind of like the stressful moment. I don’t know exactly which one to do the work on or like how to phrase it, but that was kind of like the trigger moment when he was talking about it.

Client: And I was remembering how I didn’t go as many times as he did apparently. And then how boring it was for him, but not for me.[00:03:00]

Todd: Yeah. Okay. Well, let’s think about what, what the stressful thoughts could be there. Like you have the trigger moment really clear. Um, but like, what is it that, what is he doing to you in that moment? What is your mind feeling like he’s doing to you in that moment?

Client: Yeah. It’s like a common thing he does that he doesn’t think before saying anything.

Client: So in my mind, it goes to like, Oh, he should think before he says anything like that, because it makes people feel bad or like it reminds them or something that happened that was bad, but he seems like he doesn’t care. So in my mind was like, Oh, you should think before you say something like that. Mm

Todd: hmm.

Todd: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good one. That’s a good one. Um, so let’s just run with it and see where we go. Well, I trust that it’s stressful and [00:04:00] that that’s the thought. So let’s just explore with it. Sure. So he should, he should think, uh, what was the actual saying? He doesn’t, he should think. He should think

Client: before it goes like to general in my mind, but like the moment sticks out and I have it clear.

Client: So in my mind, it’s like, he should think before He says something like that, like the thing that he said,

Todd: okay,

Client: he should think before talking that makes sense in that specific moment.

Todd: So is that true? Is that true? Look at that moment. He was talking about the festival and there’s boring and traffic and you remembering the when you were younger.

Todd: And if I understood it correctly, you didn’t go too often because, maybe because he didn’t like it. I’m not sure. Um, but he should think before [00:05:00] talking. Is that true? Yes. And can you absolutely know it’s true? He should think before talking.

Client: Yes, absolutely.

Todd: So how do you react? What happens when you have this thought after he has spoken and it feels like kind of hurtful? How do you react when you think he should think before talking?

Client: I feel like overwhelmed. I feel

Client: I feel bad. I feel like something did something bad to me. I feel totally like a victim. And I start like finding moments where he did similar things in the [00:06:00] past. So it’s like it gets overwhelming to think about all the different things. And the thought just keeps coming back of him not thinking at all before he says something.

Client: So I can feel the stress in my body and my Like upper neck. I can totally feel like how tense it gets just talking about it and then thinking about it.

Client: I feel like it’s, um,

Client: like a trap in a way, because I’ve been there so many times that it’s just like, it keeps repeating itself and it’s never going to get better. No matter if I say something or not, it’s just like going to stay there and I just have to somehow deal with it. So it’s like. I’m kind of like trapped in that place.[00:07:00]

Client: I feel like I had some pressure of like two parts of me, ones that wants to say something about it and talk to him about it and tell him like, to not say things like that. And then the other part of me where has done that before. And it doesn’t really matter at the end. So it’s like, uh, There’s like a, kind of like a fight going on of like, you should, and then, oh, why bother?

Client: I feel, I feel also sad and I judge him for not learning throughout his life how to like treat other people in those kind of circumstances and, and for not thinking about anyone else, in a way.

Client: I feel a little [00:08:00] bit lost, but because I don’t know what to do or what’s the right thing to do. To just make him understand that that’s not good. That’s not a good thing to say. And

Client: I also get overwhelmed just by thinking how this will just keep going for a long time. You know, like him just making you feel bad or like saying things that will remind you of, of things that are not that good, like the festival stuff and not being. Remembering how to even get there. I just remember being there once, but now he’s talking about how bad it is and like traffic stuff and like how boring it is of being like, there’s so many times when I wasn’t there.

Client: So that’s kind of like, doesn’t make any [00:09:00] sense to me. So I feel like attacked too. Like, I feel he’s saying that. Kind of like trigger me and make me feel a certain way. And of course, I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s how, like, my mind takes me like, Oh, he’s trying to trigger you and make you, I don’t know, say something or do something.

Client: I don’t know.

Client: Yeah. That’s kind of how I

Todd: feel. Okay. And just one other question on this line of how you react is how do you react towards him? Um, maybe on that call after that call or in general when you think he should think before talking and he doesn’t do that

Client: Oh, I completely disconnect The conversation, I can see how I’m still [00:10:00] talking to him, but it’s like on my end, the call already ended in a way.

Client: So, yeah, it feels like it feels like I’m giving him like those robotic answers when he’s talking or something like a pre or like a, yeah, like a preset answers or something while he’s talking and trying to say something else. It’s like I’m already gone. It’s like, I’m, I’m not there anymore, mentally.

Todd: So this is also reaction, just like back away, the call is ended, emotional distance. Yeah. Yeah. And then how do you treat him? Uh, like this is obviously not the first time you’ve had the thought that he should think before talking. Like if that thought is floating around in your awareness on some level, how do you overall interact with your father?

Todd: How do you, what’s your overall reaction in general? [00:11:00]

Client: He has like a,

Client: it’s like I put a barrier in front of us because of that, because I feel like, Oh, he’s going to do it. He did it again. So he’s just going to keep doing it. So I need to like, kind of protect myself. So I put a wall between us. So it’s just like we talk about things and all that, but it doesn’t go like any deeper than that after it.

Client: Yeah. Yeah.

Todd: Okay. So if this is how you react when you’re thinking the thought you should think before talking Let’s think about in an imaginary situation Same situation, but an imaginary version of it Who would you be when you’re talking to him and he’s saying that festival is boring and so much traffic and it’s reminding you of all this stuff from when you were young and you didn’t go all that’s [00:12:00] happening but you don’t have the thought he should think before talking who would you be?

Todd: I see how

Client: it’s just me talking to him on the phone.

Client: I can see how I’m not judging him or judging me or anything, just listening to him.

Client: And it’s interesting because I said something on the call about like, Oh, that’s your perception of how it is, but for other people might be [00:13:00] different. So it was like kind of automatic as like trying to defend myself in that moment. But now that I look at it and I actually experienced it, I can see that there’s true in it.

Client: Like for me. Like, I can see how it is okay to see that he went through that and he feels that way towards the festival. But that’s not my position at all. And that’s okay.

Client: So yeah, I’m not seeing any kind of battle between us going on there.

Client: I can’t even like actually go back to the rest of the conversation and. And see what he was saying. Like before it was like an autopilot. It’s like . I was like trying to remember, oh, he said this too. So that’s kind of interesting things that I, [00:14:00] yeah, I discarded right away.

Todd: Exactly like you checked out.

Todd: Yeah.

Client: Yeah.

Todd: So what do you see when you look at you? And this thing that he said triggered you, right? It reminded you of some stuff. And what do you see when you see your See. that trigger in you without the thought he should think before talking?

Todd: Well, I see

Client: that I

Client: actually don’t know 100 percent that I was, if I was there or not when I was younger, because I don’t have memories of like when I was two, three, four years old or any, probably not even eight or nine. [00:15:00] So it makes me wonder, like, perhaps I went there, but nothing special happened. So I didn’t see it. As too big of a deal.

Client: Maybe I don’t know. So there’s like a question mark before it was like a certain thing like, Oh, I didn’t go now. It’s like, I don’t even know if I was there or not.

Todd: Yeah, interesting.

Todd: Yeah, more open minded to what might or might or might not have happened.

Client: Yeah, it’s even possible that I was thinking exactly the same before. And I just don’t remember because I have like a different perspective now. So that’s interesting.

Todd: Yeah.

Todd: And then look at him talking, you having some, [00:16:00] some triggering from what he’s saying. And then what do you see in that experience of being triggered? Without any thought that he shouldn’t have done that.

Client: I can’t see that it’s like me trying to control him and trying to make him think before he says something that he doesn’t know might hurt me. It makes no sense at all. Yeah.

Todd: Yeah. We all try it, but it’s not very helpful because you can’t control him.

Client: Not at all. So it’s like me trying to. Tell him to like helping see something that will happen later on [00:17:00] that I don’t even know will happen or I don’t even know would trigger me.

Client: So, completely impossible. Right,

Todd: exactly. So, so again, without the thought, you should think before talking, who are you?

Client: Free. I’m not waiting for any punch, I’m just there. I’m just listening to him, actually. Active listening to him even after he said something I might not like or I might not agree with, and that’s fine.

Client: Hmm. I can see that like we’re completely separate worlds, even though we’re family, he has his own way of thinking and like believing about things. And I do [00:18:00] have my own, so

Client: they don’t have to be the same.

Todd: That’s really cool. really interesting. So how would you turn this thought around? He should think before talking.

Client: He shouldn’t think before talking. Right, and that makes total sense right away. Because just like hearing that again doesn’t make any sense.

Client: It’s like he should think about something. I might get hurt not even knowing what it is yet for none of us. And he should think about that beforehand. And it’s like There’s no way. Yeah. So it makes sense because we don’t know what’s going to happen. We don’t know what might trigger me or not.[00:19:00]

Client: In fact, I don’t even know if his thinking before he talks about something like that or not. There’s no way.

Client: So,

Todd: yeah, you’re expecting him to take all of that into consideration what might trigger you everything before even opening his mouth. And oh my God, that could be a huge job. And you may never say anything,

Client: right? And I’m also expecting him to be transparent and say what he thinks.

Todd: Exactly. Right. I want it all.

Client: Oh my God. Right. And he shouldn’t think because it’s better to hear what he actually thinks. About something and the best way in a way is not to think about it and just say it.

Todd: So [00:20:00] how did him just saying it in this particular situation serve you? How did it help you in some way, even though it triggered you?

Client: Well, just right now it’s helping me see that it’s a lot bigger than that. And it’s not directly related to hurting me. It’s just more about he explaining what he thinks about the festival, which is Totally okay.

Client: He can do that anytime with anyone and we can all do it anyways.

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you shouldn’t think about talking any other advantages for you of him not thinking before talking.

Todd: Well, because

Client: then you would, you wouldn’t lose that. That part where you talk with anybody [00:21:00] just like normal, you know, I, I kind of complain sometimes if people like politicians or things like that, they just always think like a thousand times before they say the right thing. So it’s, it doesn’t look transparent in a way for me.

Client: So it’s okay not to think it’s key can be totally transparent and just talk about whatever he wants to talk and just say things like. The way he sees that or feels that or whether he likes it or not.

Todd: Yeah. Then you have an authentic connection that’s spontaneous talking. And when you mentioned that politician thing, it really lands for me.

Todd: Like, do I really want that kind of. Person to be, you know, if, if it’s, do you really want your father to be like a politician with you, like just checking and making sure and walking on [00:22:00] eggshells? Like, is that, is that what you really want? Like the original thought is saying, yes, that’s what I want. But is that

Client: really what it goes back to?

Client: Definitely not at all. It could be worse, a lot worse.

Todd: Then you never know what he really thinks. Cause he’s only just thinking about you and being careful. And, but here, at least, you know who, where he is. And if you take it the right way, then you’re also free to say what you think. And. You can live in your separate worlds, but still talk about them. But if you’re in the politician version, then, Oh my God, you, you don’t know who he is.

Todd: He’s just like this strange being that’s like focusing on you too much. And you just want to push them away

Client: and tell me I’m right all the time. And it’s

Todd: exactly,

Client: yeah, not at all. It’s fine.

Todd: Yeah. It [00:23:00] sounds like, it’s funny how it sounds good at first, but when you really look at it, like, Oh no, that’s not even, that’s not good either.

Client: Yeah,

Client: that’s really interesting because it makes me feel like also that I’m like an advocate to say, okay, it’s good to be in different positions and still, like, have a conversation or go somewhere or be friends and stuff like that. But then in this case, I’m like, no, it’s like, that’s not the case. Like, we can do that.

Client: Right. Very interesting. Right.

Todd: Exactly. So he shouldn’t think before talking, because that allows you to have him be the real person that he is in front of you.

Client: Right.

Client: Really interesting.

Todd: So is there another turnaround? He should think before talking?[00:24:00]

Client: I should think before talking. Constantly. Okay. But then that doesn’t hit me as,

Client: as much of, as a I should think

Client: before judging him for not thinking when talking. Yeah. That lends more. You’re talking

Todd: in your mind, right? You’re talking, you’re judging. Right. So that, that’s the same idea. Mm hmm. Yeah. I should think before quote unquote talking, which

Client: means judging.

Todd: Mm hmm.

Client: And that’s 100 percent true. Cause like, just like I mentioned, once that happened, like I just disconnected from the call, even though it was still going.

Client: So I should just think about that and just [00:25:00] let him say whatever he wants to say. And I actually hear it rather than just leaving. So that makes sense.

Client: And then also comes to mind where that I should think before I think I’m like on the weaning side of the argument or a possible argument there because I think I’m right because that’s the way I feel and I think it’s wrong because of the way he feels. So I’m thinking, Oh, I won that conversation. That’s why I have the right to leave.

Client: So, I have to think about that. Both positions are valid.

Todd: Yeah, I didn’t think before, before judging or before leaving. Yeah. Right.

Todd: Yeah. I should [00:26:00] think before not talking to him. Right. Cause that’s, that could be right. What’s going on.

Client: Right. Right.

Client: And yeah, that would help me to see things from like a wider perspective rather than just. Like I’m having a support everything that happened before which is kind of like similar situation small here and there and I’m taking that as a proof that he’s still doing the same and that he’s attacking me and those kind of things.

Client: So I just need to like slow down and just let him talk. And later on evaluate the whole thing rather than just like getting triggered and just leaving right there. So that makes a lot of sense too.

Todd: Makes sense, yeah. I should, I should think before talking. The idea of thinking before [00:27:00] talking is not a bad thing.

Todd: You know, there’s, we say it’s, we’re being conscientious. Um, the extreme version of it of course is to be a politician. But there’s a, there’s like a normal version of it where it is fine. And it’s just that some people do it more and some people do it less. And so I should think before talking, if that’s what I do, if that’s my nature, then there’s nothing wrong with that.

Todd: But the problem is if I think that he should do that, then we have a problem.

Client: Right. And that, and that balance reminds me of my son and he just says whatever he’s thinking. He’s not, he’s just doesn’t stop to think, Oh, I’m going to say the right thing. He just feels something and then he just talks about it.

Client: That’s it.

Todd: Yeah.

Client: Yeah. So he’s probably doing the same thing and that’s okay. [00:28:00]

Todd: So basically both ways are okay. You can think before you talk or you can not think before you talk. Each one has its advantages and disadvantages and we’re all free to use either one of them and keep experimenting what works, what doesn’t work.

Todd: Yeah, basically he shouldn’t think before talking if he doesn’t, and I should think before talking if I do, but neither of us have to stick with any of these rules. There’s no rules. It’s just, that’s all.

Client: That’s really cool. If I don’t want to think too much before talking, then I can just let it happen, but then it’s okay to do it the other way around.

Todd: Mm hmm, mm hmm. Because it’s a balancing act, right? Sometimes, like, I think too much before [00:29:00] talking, sometimes I don’t think enough before talking, and I find the place which makes sense for me. And it’s probably always a balancing act. I’m never going to have, like, the perfect balance anyway. So, just keep Experimenting.

Todd: So is there another turnaround he should think before talking?

Client: Not that I can see that it’s clear. Do you see any other one?

Todd: I think the one that I should think before talking is kind of like contains the two turnarounds in one. Like I should think before talking to him. I should think before talking to me. Like they’re kind of wrapped up together. Um, And we were pretty much, I think, focusing on both of those, but maybe is there a little more about, I should think before talking to me, if you can make any sense [00:30:00] of that one.

Client: Well, that actually makes sense because I’m taking, just like I said before, I’m taking everything that happened as a proof. That I’m right, so then I’m repeating that to myself and just like getting more, I don’t know, wood to the fire or something. Yeah,

Todd: maybe the thing, yeah, that’s good, that’s good, yeah, thinking, what does thinking mean in this context?

Todd: It means like questioning in a way, like, like what we’re doing right now, I should think about it. Like, is that really? Is that really what I want to do? Does that really make sense? Is that really true? Like, I should think about it before just assuming that what I think is 100 percent true, what I believe

Client: is right.

Client: And because I’m not thinking, I’m just taking that as a [00:31:00] proof and I just keep going with it. If I just stop and think about it, Then I’ll see that it doesn’t make sense and then I’ll stop there. So I don’t just keep repeating it to me.

Todd: So this is a perfect example of your advice for your father is perfect advice for you.

Todd: It can be something like a living turnaround for you to hold in your life. Like, Oh yeah, I should think. Before talking, I should see is that really what I, what I mean, or is that really, am I just believing it and moving ahead without really looking at it

Client: really good one?

Todd: Cool. Well, thanks. Thanks so much for your work.

Client: Thank you. Really good.

Todd: In this episode, we looked at how to soften your protective stance when someone is insensitive in conversation. And what we found [00:32:00] is that This happens naturally when you start to see that it’s okay to have two different perspectives.

Todd: And, in the end, you may not even want someone to be so, uh, taking care of you so much that it feels like they’re a politician and you don’t even know who you’re talking to. So we also looked at why thoughts like, he should think before talking only make it worse. Because what I’m doing in, when I’m thinking that is that I’m basically arguing with the way he’s doing it.

Todd: And I’m thinking that he should be taking care of me. And, in that case, I’m not able to take care of myself without that thought. I am able to think about how I interact with myself and how I interact with the other person and it may end up being a lot more, uh, a more gentle kind of experience. And then finally, we looked [00:33:00] at how to gently change your perspective to experience someone’s insensitivity with a more open heart.

Todd: The thing is, we can’t control someone’s insensitivity. They are going to be the way they are. They’re probably never going to change. And so it’s up to us to look at it differently and see it as maybe even a positive. that they are telling us what they think and they’re not trying to protect us. And if we see the separation there, we can protect ourselves by being gentle with ourselves.

Todd: Then that other person can be insensitive. And it’s not as big of a challenge for us. So thanks for listening. It’s always a pleasure to do the work and to think about these things deeply. Thank you for, um, uh, just being a part of this and I look forward to our next session. In the meantime, have a great rest of your day.[00:34:00]