Overcoming Shame: How Highly Sensitive People Can Use The Work of Byron Katie for Inner Healing

Client: Alright. All right. So [00:04:00] lately I’ve, um, really been. Trying to figure out how to do the work when it feels like shame is, is the biggest thing. Mm-hmm. So it’s, it’s really hard for me to, and I’m sure other people have this problem too, of like, you know, something, something happens like most, most recently, a friend of mine was like, Hey, I, I, I feel invalidated when you say this.

Something like that. And, um. And I have such an intense reaction to that of shame and, and, and it’s hard for me to do the work when it’s like I can’t put it on somebody or know how to even put it on myself and, and do a worksheet. So, yeah, I guess. Any advice with that would be wonderful.

Todd: Okay, great. [00:05:00] Yeah, it’s a really great question.

Something that comes up, I think for almost all of us at some point, and at first it seems like hard to figure that out ’cause the judge your neighbor worksheet, which is the main tool for writing down stressful thoughts when you’re doing the work, is all about. The other person and, and sometimes it’s like I’m blaming myself or I’m feeling really ashamed and it’s not clear how to proceed.

So I can think of, um, two ways that you can approach it, and I’m happy to share that. Uh, basically the first way is just very direct. Um, for me, shame is, um. The thought usually associated with shame for me is I should or I shouldn’t, um, or I should have or I shouldn’t have. Uh, and [00:06:00] so just knowing that can allow me to start that process.

So I might just start with a blank. Uh, for example, I shouldn’t have. Um, said that, uh, to her or, um, you know, you said that your friend said, I feel invalidated when you say this, so, yeah. Um, I might even play with, I invalidated her or him. Um, that would be another way of doing it. It’s not including a should there, but it, it might work in that case.

Um. Just see, you never know when you start doing the work, what you’re gonna find. You may find, yeah, I actually did invalidate them and Okay, good to know. Then I can move on to, I shouldn’t have invalidated, um, them. [00:07:00] But you may find that it wasn’t as true as you thought. And so that can be one piece of it.

So the should and the shouldn’t, uh, should have, shouldn’t have. For me, that’s where the self-blame comes. That’s where the shame comes in. That’s when I should have done it differently. I should have known better. Um, I should have been more thoughtful. I should have been more sensitive. Anything like that is going to be in the, in the ballpark of, for me, what is making me feel bad about myself.

Like, oh my God, I should have been more sensitive. I’m, I am sensitive myself. I should have been sensitive. Uh, and, and so shame on me. Really, that’s, that’s what the mind tends to think. So when you question that, that I should have been, say, more sensitive then, uh. It may give a little breathing room, uh, to me being a [00:08:00] human being rather than being perfect because yeah, I do wanna be sensitive.

I do wanna be as, um, as kind and as good with other people as I possibly can, but I’m not perfect. And if I expect that. Then it adds a whole lot of extra stress on top of me. So the should and the shouldn’t, or the should have, or shouldn’t have. That’s me expecting perfection of myself, um, where I was not able to deliver on that.

And so I find that to be liberating. Um, you can’t, like, I don’t think it’s gonna happen. If you’re already feeling shame, I don’t think you’re gonna, I think what you’re gonna find is balancing when you do this work, but, uh, you, you don’t what. Sometimes people worry about is I’m gonna take it too far and then I’m gonna feel somehow justified to be, uh, insensitive from now on or something.

Um, but that’s not really the [00:09:00] way the work works. Uh, the work is a balancing. Act. And so when we’re doing the work on, I shouldn’t have, and we start seeing, I should have, uh, it’s not saying, oh, I should just now become insensitive forever towards people. It’s saying, um, okay, how’s it understandable that I was insensitive in that situation and.

How could I be more sensitive? Uh, but also how is it okay that I wasn’t perfect there? That that’s the little balancing act that I find comes when I’m questioning these shoulds or shouldn’t, or should haves or shouldn’t have, like that. Okay, so I also said there’s a second way that you can play with this, and that is interestingly enough looking.

Using the judge your neighbor worksheet, looking at the other person and seeing what, [00:10:00] what your judgments are. Maybe they’re flash judgments in that situation that are making you. Feel shame. Interestingly enough, sometimes the shame gets reflected off of another person, and that can be an interesting thing to question as well.

So for example, uh, just using the words you said, like the person said, I feel invalidated when you say this. And then, uh, what I could ask myself is what, um, what am I believing. About this person that’s making me feel shame here. Um, and so it might be, I don’t know. They, they don’t like me or they, um, they, uh, [00:11:00] yeah, it might be as simple as that.

I don’t know. But there’s some, there’s something that I’m imagining. They’re thinking when they say they feel invalidated, that is making me feel shame. Like they, um, yeah, they don’t ever want this to happen again. You know, or they, they can’t handle it. But even that doesn’t feel quite it for me. It’s more like, like today.

Don’t like me anymore. They, they, they’re rejecting me. Uh, or they,

yeah. So I don’t know. It’s not my work, so I’m just guessing here. Um, but this is a, an interesting way to play with, uh, it’s, it’s not that I’m judging them.

I’m judging them, but I’m judging them as judging me. It’s kind of that, that can be a. Twist there. So [00:12:00] it’s an open question, what are, what, how am I, what am I thinking about them? In the moment when I feel shame, uh, they’re blaming me. They are thinking less of me. They have lost respect for me. Like those kinds of thoughts can make me feel a lot of shame.

And even though it’s. I grab onto it and really hurt myself with it. I’m using them as the mirror that’s that I’m seeing myself in, and it’s not, I’m not, it may not even be an accurate mirror. It can be, I can exaggerate the unkind version of that. Uh, that vision, you know, they have lost all respect for me.

They are ashamed of me. They’re horrified by what I did. You know, like that can be interesting to question. Um, so this is where you can use the judge, your neighbor worksheet to work on shame. It’s just what are they thinking about me? Um. [00:13:00] But you can also do the direct version of just, um, I shouldn’t have done that.

And, and then maybe the third one was, what I kind of slipped in at that at one point was just questioning the actual situation, like what they said or what, um, I think that means, or anything related to what, what they were, the feedback they were giving me. Um. So anyway, those are a few ideas just off the top of my head.

I don’t know if, um, any of those resonate or if you have any further thoughts or questions about that.

Client: That was all really helpful. Um, I think you even spoke to some thoughts and feelings that I didn’t realize I was, I was, I was kind of holding onto. Onto. So, um, that was really expansive for me. Um, and as I’m like listening, it’s funny ’cause as I’m listening to you and as I’m kind of like sitting with it [00:14:00] and the past few days, all I’ve been able to feel towards it is, is shame.

And as I’m like kind of getting still with it, I’m like. Feeling these other thoughts coming up of like, oh, she shouldn’t blame me for this. She, it’s, I’m getting a lot of good, good judge your neighbor. Yes. Material right now. Yes. As I’m, as the, the shame is kind of settling down. So, um, but, but even the, the first part about, um, questioning the thought, the should, the shouldn’t ’cause that’s a lot of it.

Um, yeah. Very helpful. Thank you.

Todd: Cool. Yeah, you’re welcome. Yeah. I think in general, self attack thoughts and shame is one of those kinds of self attack thoughts. They tend to be, um, kind of the secondary, uh, reaction. Like first I react by judging the other person, then I react by judging myself. They’re kind of, so it’s like layered.

And so the first thing that you experience is [00:15:00] the shame. I feel shame only all I feel is shame. I’m not judging anyone else. I just feel shame. But when you start to look at the shame and you start to get, uh, clearer on that or start to do some work on that, or even just talking about it, what your experience is, makes it resonates with my experience that.

Okay. There’s something more underneath the shame, which is I’m actually judging that person, and I didn’t even see that because the shame was over top of me, so, exactly. That’s

great. Exactly.

Todd: Yep. We’re exploring the mind, we’re exploring experience, and when you hold it, when you sit with it and you look like we’re doing here.

There’s often many different directions you can take and anyone will be a good place to start. One road leads to the next, and all roads lead to Rome. So just, just pick what feels close enough. [00:16:00] Doesn’t have to always be the exact thing, uh, perfect, stressful thought. But anything in that ballpark, just uh, just start playing with it and see where you go.

And. And it can be very exciting to unravel this because once you get the idea, you start to be able to unravel it sooner, quicker, um, sometimes even in real time. And that can really change the experience. So thank you for bringing it. Really important topic for many of us.

So anyone else want to, uh, ask anything or do the work on anything?[00:17:00]

And I can also

Todd: include like, if you’re just like what we did just a minute ago, um, anything where you’re still just working out, how do I work, how do I set up this, [00:18:00] the work for this particular situation, what do I, I. Where do I begin with a something? You can just start with a situation sometimes. Um, but yeah.

Anyone have anything you’d like to bring up or anything you’d like to do to work on?[00:19:00]

Client 2: I thought of something.

Todd: Okay, great. I

Client 2: usually have a big long list, but I’ve been working so much on it. It’s like. That doesn’t upset me anymore. That doesn’t upset me anymore. You know, tick off three things and then five more go with it. So that’s kind of nice. I have had so true. Yeah. I have had some concerns and, and they’re off and on and they’re small and I keep thinking, well, I, you know, I’m not gonna waste anyone’s time with it, which is another worksheet.

But it has to do with my ambivalence, with how I have a relationship with my dog. On one hand, I want the dog to, you know, do everything I say and listen to me. And on the other hand, I want her to have this freedom to explore and, [00:20:00] and have fun and, and so sometimes when I take her on a walk. I just let her do whatever she wants and we have a good time.

And other times I take her for a walk and I’m, I’m like, no, I want you to walk right next to me. And I have this concern that if I don’t at least instill some, um, regulation with it discipline, that’s what it is. I’m inconsistent and I just have no, I have none, no discipline on myself. So how am I gonna have it on my dog?

You know? It’s like, like I don’t, I can relate, have to walk a certain way. Either I wanna just play most of the time. Yeah, let’s go explore this and,

and I think it probably shows up that, that, so. Ambivalent discipline shows up in a lot of other places in [00:21:00] my life.

Todd: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So this is a good one. And I certainly can relate training a our puppies about a year and a half, and I’m have the same, same little ambivalence. Sometimes I want that freedom. Just go have fun and, and other times I want it to be. Uh, come on, let’s, let’s do the training here. Yeah. Um, so, so how could we work on this?

Um, one possibility is there are two conflicting desires. One is I want her to listen to me. The there is, I want her to have the freedom to explore. And so one possibility would be to work each of those separately. Um, we, we don’t have time to do that at the moment, but each could be worked separately to kind of loosen the.

Attachment on each side, and then see if the balance, um, can, [00:22:00] if there’s some way to meet in the middle a little more easily. Um, I’m trying to think if there’s a way we could work it right here, um, in the time we do have so

Client 2: well, okay. Yeah, so like, so the, um.

I haven’t really thought out how to go even go about it, you know? So, yeah, I want, I wanna be able to have the freedom in my walk, and at the same time, I want her safe, so she has to be able to respond to me.

Yeah.

Client 2: And I don’t want, yeah. So, uh, there might be an underlying thought. Thought here. Like, I want my dog to like me.

Mm-hmm. [00:23:00]

Todd: Oh yeah.

I like it.

Client 2: That’s it. I want my dog to like me.

Todd: Okay. Let’s play with that.

Client 2: Okay.

Todd: And this is a good example of, of, uh, what I was mentioning earlier of we’re, we’re close enough, any of these thoughts are gonna be in the, in the ballpark. And, uh, we could spend another, if we had the luxury of time, we could spend another.

15 minutes thinking about different stressful thoughts and identifying, but this, this one resonates. You can feel it. Uh, there’s something there. Yeah. So let’s just play with it.

Client 2: I want my dog to, I want

Todd: my dog to like me. So is that true? This is the situation is going out for a walk and debating about giving freedom or giving discipline.

Do

Client 2: I bark with her? Do I try to stop her?

Todd: Right. Where is the line here,

Client 2: right? And, and when I’m in that space, do I start chasing

Todd: sticks?

Client 2: That’s true. Lemme show you how to do this.

Todd: [00:24:00] Yeah,

Client 2: so, so the answer is no. Okay. Sorry.

Todd: So

Client 2: That’s okay. We’re both weird.

Todd: The answer is yes. I want my dog to like me. Yes, it’s true.

Okay, so can you Absolutely. No, it’s true. You want your dog to like you,

Client 2: not as much. Not as, no, not as the primary. I want, I want my dog to be safe. Is more of a primary. So to like me, it doesn’t have to be true.

Todd: Okay.

Client 2: You know, at all times. So how

Todd: do you react? How do you react? What happens when you think you want your dog to like you in this kind of scenario?

Client 2: Uh, I am inconsistent with her.

Um, I say no, and then I go, well, okay. And, um, I. Then try to discipline her. [00:25:00] But I don’t, I am hesitant to be harsh. I don’t wanna be, you know, like I don’t, I’m not gonna hurt my dog disciplining her. So at this point, she’s lost attention to me. And so I sometimes turn around and take her back home instead of finish a walk.

Um.

I think that she doesn’t, that, you know, I make up excuses for her. She’s a rescue. She didn’t have any discipline when she was, you know, growing up. Um, she deserves to have some fun. I feel guilty because I’ve left her alone. I haven’t given her any attention, and now that I’m giving her attention. I want it to be strict attention.

So I feel like, I feel like if I put myself in her place, I’m prohibiting her or inhibiting her from enjoying the, the walk that she’s waited all [00:26:00] day. Like, like I made up. She’s waiting all day for me to give her this attention and she should be more grateful for it. Um, and then I laugh at myself because I’m not even that disciplined for me.

I. So I’m just as inconsistent with my own discipline.

I predict at some point she’s gonna get away from me and start chasing something down the street and, and get hit by a car, eaten by a coyote or something. Yeah. And then I. My inner voice says, you shouldn’t have this kind of responsibility. It’s too much for you.

Yeah.

Todd: Right?

Client 2: Yeah. Okay.

Todd: So who would you be without the thought and you want your dog to like you? Hold on one second[00:27:00]

than usual. If it’s okay. Uh, yeah, it’s another five minutes.

Okay. I’m on. I’m on a call. Sorry. Okay, so what would you be without the thought? I want my dog to like,

Client 2: thought I would just be however I was in the mood to be in that time. The dog is gonna get walked sometimes with me being stricter and more and other times being more relaxed. Without the thought, I would probably set the mood at the beginning of the walk.

Um, without the thought. I’d probably look on the 200 sites of people that know how to train dogs and see if there’s some way of being able to blend that. I soon to recall one right now that’s, that starts out with. The dog being [00:28:00] very disciplined, and then you give it free time and then it gets to do whatever it wants to, and then you call it back.

And somehow or other, the dog knows based on the instructions, and they listen better than kids. And then I, and even without, even without the thought, I do have the thought that I would need, I would need some training to know how to do that properly. That’s not, it doesn’t come naturally for me to do that.

So I would probably seek someone who knows how to do that

and um, learn how to do that. Learn how to blend the discipline with the freedom. Right?

’cause I’ve done a lot of work exactly on my dog. Not, you know, not listening to me, but she [00:29:00] does for most of the time. I mean, I don’t even think about that without the thought. Probably most of the time she listens to me. Yeah,

Todd: right.

Client 2: She’s smart. Okay,

Todd: so how would you turn the thought around? Do you want your dog to like you?

Client 2: Um, I wanna like my dog.

Todd: Okay.

Client 2: And that be as true. She’s, huh? Yeah. I want, I wanna just like her the way she’s, whether she’s listening or not, or whether she’s excited about something and showing it, you know, I, I want to like her and just let her be herself.

And I also want to like her, even when she’s resisting my commands. Because that, that in my mind, [00:30:00] wouldn’t change whether I like her or not. It would just be whether I was, she was doing what I asked her to or not.

Okay. I see so many other things I’m gonna be doing Pa what’s another, um, yeah, I don’t want, I don’t want, so it’s another

Todd: turnaround.

Client 2: I don’t want my dog to like me.

Todd: Okay. How could that be as true for you?

Client 2: I have, there’s no way, way I would know if she really likes me.

You know, I would probably have to find some animal medium and have, ask her if she likes me. But for the most part, she snuggles up to me. And you know, I, the feeling that she likes me, but I don’t want her to like me just because I like, I want her to. I want her to have the freedom to like what she likes.

And if I’m that, that would be awesome.[00:31:00]

And there may even be a, I don’t need, it’s almost

Todd: another,

Client 2: yeah.

Todd: Mm-hmm.

Client 2: It’s like I might actually change it to need my dog to like me, and then I don’t really need my dog to like me.

Todd: Right. So especially with discipline. Right. How is it that you don’t need your dog to like you?

Client 2: Um, because she may not like what I’m asking her to do, but with discipline, she would do it without discipline. Um, and not, not her being disciplined, but me giving her the appropriate discipline, teaching it to her, uh, I would have to find it in myself Incidentally.

Which leads me to, I want me to like me.

Todd: Okay.

Client 2: And I, and there are times when I think I would like to be [00:32:00] more disciplined and other times when I think I’m too disciplined and I don’t do, I don’t do what I say, it’s the same thing I want to do.

Um,

Todd: so yeah,

Client 2: there I am. Bad doggy, right? Same.

Todd: Same thing. Right. As As within, so without, right.

Client 2: Yeah. It has nothing to do with the dog, does it?

Todd: No. This is a debate you’re having with you internally in a lot of different situations and here it is, showing up with the dock.

Client 2: Yeah.

Todd: I want me to like me even when I’m being disciplined.

That’s kind of what the statement

Client 2: is. Yeah. Ultimately would be, wouldn’t it?

I want me to like me.

I like that. I can play with that. I can take that from [00:33:00] here.

Todd: I like it too. Yeah. Thanks. It kind of reminds me of, uh, having. Been going through this myself with our dog and all the searching I’ve done on internet and different teachers and everything. And, and I recently did find a program. It wasn’t, it was, uh, by put together by people who train service dogs and mm-hmm.

They gave, like they, I’m sort of in week three of a 10 week course on it, and they’ve really meshed these two together somehow beautifully. Like they, they make the sessions fun for the dog and it’s never above their level. I think my biggest problem with my dog was trying to ask it to do more than it could, like it was in first grade.

I’m trying to ask you to do eighth grade work, and it was just. You know, eyes glaze over or I can’t do it. Well, what’s it called? And it’s like, started really slow and just [00:34:00] step by step and, um, and, and I’m, I’m actually, I’m watching this in my own experience, how the discipline is he loves this. Our dog is like, I’ve never seen him so excited about.

He just, he’s like, when can we go training again? You know, he’s like, he finds me. And, uh, so I’d be happy to share that with you if you interested.

Client 2: Yeah, do share that with me, please. Yeah, send that to me.

Todd: Yeah, for sure.

Client 2: Well, thank you. Cool.

Todd: Well that

Client 2: thanks.

Todd: Yeah. Good stuff. Good. Uh, very interesting situation and even just in the few minutes we had to look at it.

I think there’s, um, some new possibilities and that’s all the work ever does. It just point in some new directions, so thank you. Thanks.

If you would like to participate in open sessions like the one you heard just now, then go to the work as meditation.com [00:35:00] and go to the open sessions page and you can see the upcoming schedule. You can sign up, you can join in and participate in these sessions, which take place every week on different days at different times of the day, and you just kind of see which ones will work for you.

Only allow seven people plus myself, so total of eight in the sessions. So they’re very intimate and um, I think you’ll find them very enjoyable. It’s a great way you can, great place where you can ask your questions or you can do the work with me. Also, while you’re at the work as meditation.com, uh, you might want to also check out my private sessions page.

I have, uh, a limited number of private sessions available, but if you’re interested, especially in doing a, uh, regular kind of a monthly, uh, practice of the work with me, then uh, check it out. It’s the work as meditation.com, and then private sessions. Next, I’m going to [00:36:00] read one of my newsletter articles called.

Are you pushing your abuser down?

Do you want your abuser to rot in hell? This desire may be hurting you the most. Let’s say you were abused. Most of us have had some experience of abuse. Maybe it was physical or sexual abuse, or maybe it was emotional abuse. There are so many subtle ways to experience abuse. Even just the slightest feeling of being disrespected can feel like abuse, but let’s say you wanted to move past it.

How do you do that? The experience of abuse runs deep in the mind, and it may be hard to move on and let it go when you know that what your abuser did was wrong. Why years after abuse, it’s common for people to keep feeling like a victim, powerless and angry. [00:37:00] The mind holds onto the wrongness of what they did and it can’t move past it.

But there’s something interesting worth noticing, and it can come out of when you do the work. And I mean by that, the work of Byron Katie. I find that one of the keys of letting go of abuse is to notice where I’m still mentally pushing down my abuser. It takes some stillness to see and to feel this what they did was wrong.

And there’s no doubt about that, and there’s no condoning that either there. But if I notice where I’m continuing to hammer them with it in my mind, uh, for what they did. If I’m continually pushing them down, continually, um, railing against them, then that’s something I’m doing. This is actually where I’m hurting myself and when I’m doing this, there’s no way to disengage from the pain [00:38:00] I’ve locked on, and I’m just again and again pushing this abuser and it hurts me.

The mind is engaged in punishing them. And that keeps bringing me back to the scene of the crime over and over. Trying to right a wrong in a way that can never work, can never change the past. So I’m literally hurting myself by pushing them down. It hurts to push someone down, even if that person was abusive.

It hurts to attack them, to wish them to suffer, even if I only push them down in my mind. When I notice how I’m doing this, it can level the playing field a bit. It can tone down the feeling of righteousness and of being a victim, and it can help me to unhook from the pain. Now, there is something I can do to stop my pain.

Yes, they were abusive. No need to deny it, [00:39:00] but where is the pain coming from now? In my experience, it’s coming from where I continue to abuse myself and my abuser by wanting them to suffer. If you’re interested in working and letting go of old traumas, then I encourage you to join our Inquiry Circle community and take the work 1 0 1 course as a way of learning how to really deal with any kind of stressful experience.

I end with a quote from Byron Katie. This is from her book. I Need Your Love. Is that true? If you haven’t undone your painful thoughts, you can get into a bubble bath. You can light candles, recite positive affirmations, pamper yourself in every way, and once you’re out of the tub, the same thoughts will come back to haunt you.[00:40:00]

So thanks for listening and be sure to, to subscribe to this podcast, share it with a friend, post something on social media, leave a review for the podcast if you haven’t done that, and stop by the work as meditation.com to get my newsletter or to participate in open sessions like the one you heard here today.

And you’ll also find hundreds of articles there on the work of Byron Katie, as well as the Work 1 0 1, the Work 1 0 2 Virtual Retreats. We have a winter virtual retreat coming up, uh, in January. Uh, inquiry Circle, which is my. Main support group and community for doing the work, which includes training as well with the work 1 0 1 and many other things, including private sessions and, and other courses that I offer.

So check it out. Go to the work as meditation.com and see if making this work. Byron Katie. A kind of practice for you might be something that could support [00:41:00] you as you go down your own path in life. Thanks again for being here, and until next time, have a great

week.