How Highly Sensitive People Can Stay Grounded and Positive During Deep Inner Work

Client: [00:00:00] When you’re doing the work, is there a certain place in the body or energy center that you should be focusing on when you’re doing the work? I know Byron Katie, I think says like sort of the the third eye or the center of the head. I think is where she does it, but I, is there a place or is it just more you just ask the question and then see where the attention goes?

Todd: Welcome to Wiggle Room, a podcast where we start with stress and look for ways to turn it around. And I love using the work of Byron Katie. A simple way to question the thoughts that you’re thinking in any stressful situation and turn those thoughts around in a very systematic way, this simple process of.

Four questions and turnarounds and examples of the turnarounds is what, [00:01:00] uh, is called the work of Byron Katie, and that’s what this podcast is all about. I’m Todd Smith, and on the program today, a participant asks a interesting question about how to remain positive when finding. My part in things. Um, sometimes easy to beat yourself up when you’re finding turnarounds and this is, uh, how to look at that.

Also another participant asks about should they focus on a particular area of the body when doing the work. And so we’ll look at that as well. And we have a interesting discussion on the value of doing the work on minor stressful moments that come up in daily life. And I share some of my experiences, uh, in that part of the recording.

Also, I’ll be reading my newsletter article called You Can’t Push Someone Down and Pull yourself up [00:02:00] at the same time. So let’s dive into the work of Byron Katie together. I hope you’ll find this very simple process, uh, as enjoyable as I do. And in this particular session, we’re not actually doing the work.

We’re going to be mainly focused on some questions and discussion. Here’s the latest weekly open session, and I share as always, the unedited recording so that you can experience exactly what it’s like to be in one of these open sessions.

Client: I’ll start it off with a question. Um, so when you’re, when you’re doing the work, is there a. Certain place in the body or energy center that you should be focusing on when you’re doing the work. I know Byron Katie, I think says like sort of the, the third eye or the center of the head I think is where she does it.

But I, [00:03:00] is there a place or is it just more you just ask the question and then see where the attention goes? 

Todd: Yeah, that’s the way it works for me is that, um. I’m not really putting my attention on any particular part of my body when I’m doing the work, but I’m asking the question and listening to what, what is coming up from inside?

So one of the questions is how do you react right? When you believe a particular thought and often. My attention will be drawn to a particular part of my body, and I can often feel like the physical con con, uh, traction in my heart or in my stomach, or in my throat, or in my arms or my legs, or, you know, you can show up anywhere my, my eyes, uh, wherever the stress is.

Is, uh, manifesting. And likewise, when I go to question four, who would you be without the thought? Um, I often notice some [00:04:00] changes in that experience, and so I’m just noticing the work is very open-ended. It’s not like, okay, I’m gonna focus on my third eye or focus on my heart, or focus on some part and, and do the work there.

It’s more just. Focus on the stressful situation that brought me to the work. And then notice once I’m holding that what’s going on in my body, in my mind, in my reactions, um, from there. And so that kind of openness, I find that really a, a central. Kind of theme of the work, looking and noticing what is there with open-ended questions.

These questions are open-ended, don’t know where they’re gonna go, and then I don’t know what I’m gonna find. And the miracle is not the questions, but what comes up to meet those questions from inside. And it can come from anywhere. Um, so it’s, it’s about listening really. I’m listening to myself wherever that may, wherever I [00:05:00] may be pointed as I do that.

So any other question or any other, um, any topic do you get, do you ever been in a situation where you’re not quite sure how to even. Start to work on it like that sometimes happens where? Yeah, Susan. Okay. Um, so like, um, do you wanna share, uh, something like that? We can look at a situation. I just got you muted.

Let me unmute you. There we go. Okay. Can you say something? All 

Client 2: right? 

Todd: Yes, I hear you. 

Client 2: Um, my question is, uh, I run into, um, when I’m answering, uh, the four questions. And I’m doing, let’s [00:06:00] say I turn the thought around to the self. Um, it’s real easy for me to, uh, look at all the negative things I’ve done or, uh, and it’s, you know, I look at your examples from your sample worksheet.

Worked all the way through using templates. Um, and I’m just always blown away by how. Positive and uplifting. You can turn the situation around. And boy, I just have a hard time with that. It just chokes me up And, you know, I even, you know, even recently just used some of your examples, uh, on my own and put and just almost type them up literally, uh, to get myself moving and, you know, I mean, it just felt really uplifting and Wow.

Um. But it still doesn’t co go easily for me. [00:07:00] And I, maybe it just needs practice, uh, looking at the, uh, that there’s more than just the negative side or whatever side you wanna call it, that there is, um, I don’t wanna use the word way out, even though I have did, um, but that there’s, uh, there is a way out of this.

It doesn’t have to be so negative, I guess. And. Um, I could think of a positive or uplifting way. I don’t know. 

Todd: That’s a great question. Um, and I think the short version is that, that it is, it’s, it comes with experience. Um, the first. You think of the first step that a little child takes. They, they move forward, but they go too far and then they fall.

So they like it. It’s like each turnaround is [00:08:00] like, it’s like turning the, the, the whole mind in an opposite direction and the mind doesn’t know how far to take it, so it just goes too far and it goes into the negative and it can. With experience a child learns to, while moving forward already start shifting the balance so that they’re not going too far forward and they’re ready for the next step.

And so they’re kind of anticipating the, they’re almost like breaking, even as they’re accelerating, there’s a certain control there where they have a little, uh, a little bit of both happening at the same time. And so when I’m doing the work and I’m looking for examples of how. How the turnaround is, how, how I’m doing the same thing that the other person is doing.

In other words, the turnaround to the self. The first, uh, the first way I might do it would be just be like, oh my God, I do that. I’m terrible, and then just start beating myself up. Uh, it’s very common to do that, [00:09:00] but the way I like to hold it is I like to hold it as a balance to the original statement. So there.

Doing something that I don’t like. Turns out I do the same thing and then I, I kind of hold those two together. So it’s like there’s a little break happening there at the same time where I’m saying. Oh yeah, they’re doing that and I’m doing that. Look at us. We’re both doing that. We’re like, we’re both human beings, uh, doing the same thing.

And that leaves me in a place of feeling okay. I feel expanded because I’m no longer blaming them, but I also haven’t jumped into blaming myself. And, and that’s that little balancing act that comes with experience. Uh, that’s, that’s all I can say. But the, the trick of it from my point of view is, is.

Always keep the turnaround in the context of the original statement and in the context of the moment that you’re, [00:10:00] that you’re looking at. So you know, if I’m looking at a specific moment when somebody said something mean to me and I’m working the question they’re mean to me, then. I can turn it around and go, um, I’m mean to me.

And I might start finding examples of all the times, I’m mean to me in my life and it’s gonna be overwhelming, right? That’s like overkill. But if I just look for how I’m being mean to me in the moment when I think he’s being mean to me now I just see, oh, right, he’s doing his thing and then I’m taking it further and doing my thing to myself.

And that’s actually. Like actually really freeing to see, because it’s empowering. I realize that the, the worst part of the pain is coming from what I’m doing to myself on top of what, uh, he’s doing. So the context like holding the, the original statement and, and the, the moment there when I’m finding the examples really [00:11:00] helps a lot.

Um, and for another part of that is if I am. If he’s being mean to me, and then I see I’m being mean to me. There’s like, okay, there’s, there are two parts to this. There’s an inner thing that I’m doing to myself. There’s an outer thing. I can’t control the outer, but I can control the inner. So it’s giving me a sense of more control, or I’m being mean to him.

He’s being mean to me. We’re just doing what human beings do, which is sometimes we’re mean to each other and. It’s understandable. He’s probably believing some stressful thought himself. I certainly am believing some stressful thought. And, and then it balances the, the, it kind of levels the playing field.

So it’s a, it’s a, a delicate hold and, and when you first start, it can feel, um, it can feel, it may feel difficult to hold it that way. So [00:12:00] just one of the things that helps a lot is, is watch videos, listen to recordings, read, uh, transcripts. You know, familiarize yourself with people that have done a lot of the work, and you’ll get ideas of how these two opposites can be held together without causing more stress.

And anytime you have a specific. Uh, question about a particular one where you’re like, ah, I don’t know how to not do this. Bring it and we’ll look at it. Maybe able to find some examples together. 

Yeah.

Alright. So any other question 

Todd: or, or any other, um, kind of situation if you’d like to do a little piece of work? And my favorite thing about the work is it doesn’t have to be big situations. It doesn’t have to be like, you know, [00:13:00] the the major ones, although they are great to work too, but just a little small moments in a day can often be very illuminating when you bring ’em into the work.

So I often keep an eye out for that kind of situation 

as well.

Um, 

Client 2: yeah, I have one that, uh, I, I tend to be, uh, looking at a lot of really, yeah. Um, deep, um, stressful issues and I, I look forward to, uh, starting just to do my daily day daily. Stressful. Yeah. And maybe I should focus just on the daily ones instead of always these deep, dark, you know, secrets I have. But, um, I [00:14:00] do have one and I’d like to, uh.

I want to schedule a time with you one on one on, because it is pretty personal. And so yeah, I’ll send you an email after this and uh, do that first. ’cause, you know, it feels like a big deal for me. Uh, it’s feels really fearful of me to let this cat outta the bag, so to speak. So. 

Todd: Absolutely. That’s the value of private sessions, that they’re just for you to be held one-on-one and there’s no, it’s just for you.

Um, you know, these open sessions are, they’re for all of us to benefit from each other, and that’s a different value, but there are, there’s a good reason why, uh, I have private sessions, so, yeah. Feel free to Okay. Contact me and set something up. Great.

Client: Yeah. A a a little [00:15:00] example of the, the, the little, um, practices is I was saying to myself during the silence, oh, I should say something. You know, it’s silent. Mm, I should say something. And the very little. And I said, well, is that true? No. And then the turnaround was just like, no, I don’t need to say anything.

And. Yeah, just by that I mean there’s like a hundred percent more freedom in me being with the two of you right now. Just that it’s just like, I don’t have to say anything. Not like I don’t have to say anything or you know what I mean? Or totally from the work is like, whoa. Just, just that was like, I don’t have to say anything yet.

I don’t have to feel uncomfortable. I can like just sit here. Okay. Don’t have to say anything. Let’s just. You know, hang out and not say anything and, ’cause I don’t have to say anything. Yeah. Hopefully you don’t have to say anything or whatever. 

Todd: So, very, that’s a really cool phase to be in. Cool. Yeah, I’ve, [00:16:00] I’ve, um, I’ve done the work on that myself because I’ve been doing these open sessions for, I don’t know, five or more years.

And there’ve been plenty of times where we’re just like, okay, well I don’t know. Do you have anything? No. Do you? And then we just sort of sit there and. At first it was uncomfortable. Like there’s this pressure, oh my gosh, I’ve gotta say something. Or I’ve gotta, we’ve gotta have something really deep for people, you know, like that, kind of, those, those are just beliefs.

They’re just, just thoughts. And so I’ve questioned some of those over the years and it’s, it’s left me in a place of more or less, maybe sometimes it comes up, but more or less like. Don’t know what’s gonna happen. Doesn’t matter. It just, let’s just hang out and it just starts to feel more like we’re just friends hanging out, talking about the work or, or not, you know, we can just chill together.

And that feel like you said, just that little turnaround, like you did a little piece of work there in two seconds [00:17:00] and came to the turnaround. I don’t need to say anything and there’s suddenly a freedom. Now I can if I want to. There’s no like. Pressure to say something important or so I just, I just talk or don’t talk and it’s very free.

Yeah. Yeah. But that’s it. That’s exactly the kind of little moment you think it’s so insignificant. But that kind of little moment I can guarantee has shown up in my life so many different times and different social situations and different, um, work situations like how I pressure myself. To say something or to say something good or to do a good job.

You know, I’m like, this weekend I’m gonna be going and playing in a pickleball tournament, which I’ve only played in one or two before in my life. The first one, I was petrified. I was just like totally froze up, but couldn’t. That was like two or three years ago and. ’cause [00:18:00] it was like, I’ve gotta do good.

I’ve gotta win. You know, like I gotta, ’cause if you don’t, you’re eliminated. And so like this, the pressure, it’s similar to this kind of speech. I, I’m putting this pressure on myself and granted I was not that good then anyway, but I was even worse that day because I was in total freeze mode. Um. But now I’m looking, I’ve got a tournament, like I said, coming up tomorrow and, and Saturday and Sunday.

And I’m not thinking about it. I’m just like looking forward to it. Oh, I’m gonna play. I get to play with people I’ve never played before, with before. I get to, um, probably learn some new shots just from watching people or experimenting. In a way, it’s no different than me playing in my home club with my same old people that I play with all the time.

It’s just. You know, no big deal. So when life becomes like that, different parts of life become like that, no big deal. It starts being way more fun and way more [00:19:00] enjoyable.

That’s a turnaround, right? And if I don’t notice those little stresses, then they just keep. Being there, they sort of go unquestioned and they continue to show up when the situation shows up. So stage fright or, um, yeah. Another example of that for me was the first time I did a presentation to the work in public, like it was probably 30 people at a library and I was.

I was getting nervous, like, oh my God, I better do a good job. I better, you know, I’ve gotta look good. Like I better not mess it up. You know? All that stuff was going on in my mind, and somehow it was not a formal piece of work, but somehow this kind of turnaround came to me and it, and I just realized that it wasn’t about me.

It was just about, it was about these people. That wanted to learn about the work, maybe do [00:20:00] a little work, um, that wanted to, um, explore this. And so suddenly the focus turned off of me and turned onto them and my nervousness went completely away. And actually, I don’t get nervous presenting the work since that time.

I mean, even these little open sessions, I’d never feel nervous. It’s because I’m not. It’s not about me. I don’t care how it looks. I don’t care how it, you know how it turns out. I’m just, I’m just available and I like to do this. And so it just feels like the light is off of me and that’s cool. So these are, these are mundane, tiny things, right?

But they affect the way I live my 

daily life. Yeah.

Todd: So, you know, we work on traumas, we work on big issues. We work on those things because those things have a grip on our lives, and it’s very [00:21:00] helpful to do that. But we also work on these little minor things because we don’t even know that they have a grip on our lives. It’s like unseen. It’s it’s unseen.

And that’s why I love. Just waiting for life to show me the next little piece of stress. It’s like a little fine needle that just shows where, what, you know, the, the basically our system is so sensitive. We notice when there’s something stress and, and if you just pay attention to that and you look at what was going on and then you do the work on that, it will give you exactly.

What is needed. Um, so I don’t even have to keep a ledger of what to do. Life just 

shows me. Yep.

So, and go ahead. Yeah, so 

Client: life is, [00:22:00] you can say life is steering you with all those, I’ll call ’em negative thoughts, whatever they’re steering you with all those thoughts for your. Enlightenment, for lack of a better word. Um, and so they’re, they’re really gifts that if we open them up, so to speak, by examining them, yeah.

Then we get the, uh, the, um, the prize. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s a very cool way of looking at it. Suddenly, negativity is not a negative thing anymore. Negativity, when you have the work starts to be, yeah, a gift, and that’s a major turnaround.

So what I experience is life. Exposes me to a million different situations. Maybe it’s random, maybe it’s not. I don’t know. But I get exposed to lots and [00:23:00] lots of different situations throughout a day or throughout a year, and. By chance it’s gonna hit on some places where I still have stressful beliefs.

It’s just going to, by the sheer numbers being presented to me, it’s gonna hit on some of those points where I’m still asleep, still confused, still stressed. And so, um, when it does great, I now know what to work on. And when I do, it starts to change that. Knot of stress into something a little lighter and something a little, um, more clear.

And then life will keep presenting stuff and it will find that spot again. And if it’s totally clear, it’s not gonna have any reaction. But if it is, if it’s still got some stuff, it will get triggered again and great. I’m gonna go for round two and just keep cleaning it out until at some point there’s just not much that.

That gets [00:24:00] me right. I, I still get gotten, but the, but they’re, they’re less intense. They’re less frequent, and that’s the progression I’ve noticed over the years. It just keeps getting. Easier and it gets more interesting. There’s these little things like, like they’re so hidden. They’re actually some of the biggest ones because they’re the ones that I wanna hide outta the way.

They’re the ones I really don’t want to deal with. So I think, oh yeah, this little thing. And I could just brush it, brush it by. But when I really am open to going in and looking, it’s like, holy moly. Wow. I had no idea. That’s been holding me back my whole life. Um, and now it’s not. So that’s the fun of this.

It’s, it gets more fun the more you do it because you’re, you’re not like, it’s not as dire. That’s my experience. Not as, it’s not as, I don’t have to do the work. That’s, that’s the feeling. It’s not as. Um, [00:25:00] I’m not as desperate to do the work. I still have to do the work, but I don’t have to have to, and that takes the pressure off and allows me to think of it as, oh, what will I learn?

And, and, and then when I’m open like that, I often learn things that are very unexpected, very unexpected.

There’s no, there’s no particular place to get to. It’s just keep exposing myself and see what’s left. You know, one time I went to one of Byron Katie’s mental cleanses back when she was doing those, and, and the first thing she said when she came out on stage was what? Um. What stressful beliefs are you still believing?

You know, what stressful thoughts are you still believing? And that’s the attitude like there, there’s probably a few more. What are they? And let’s look. And then when you look, [00:26:00] you just get a little more enlightened and a little more enlightened. And it’s, it’s a process. So the work for me is not just a one and done, it’s something that I like to do on a daily basis.

’cause then I just keep. Addressing these little things that come up and the big things that come up. Um, and I just keep getting an education every day, another little bit of education.

Client: Do you find that with, with the amount of practice that you’ve had with it, that when the stressful thoughts come up that you more immediately have a certain amount of compassion for them? Because they’re going, you know, the gift that they’re going to give you. 

Todd: Okay. Yeah. I remember one time getting really, one really got me, I was, uh, I was still living in Ojai probably 2013 or something, and I was at the farmer’s market [00:27:00] and I, uh, wanted to buy something, I don’t even remember what it was.

Uh, some piece of food, and I couldn’t find the person who was selling it. The, the food was right there on the table and the price was right there. So I put some money under the. Under the sign or something and took the thing and walked off, and someone came up to me like. Just irate. It was another vendor like you just stole from them, you know?

And that’s like one of my biggest stresses, being falsely accused of something. And I, I remember it, like my, my reaction came like my heart was pounding and everything was like gearing up and then I thought I was doing a lot of work. I’m like, oh, this is gonna be a great judge, your neighbor worksheet.

And I kind of like laughed about it. ’cause I. I didn’t know how it was gonna be resolved, but I knew it was gonna be really interesting to look at. ’cause I, I caught a live one, you know, like this got me. So I’m excited to see what I’m gonna learn there. So [00:28:00] it’s kind of like you’re, I, I think I see what you mean by compassion or understanding, um, that this is not a bad thing, that I’m getting shown this because I have the time and I have a practice of looking into it.

So, great. Bring it on. It’s kind of like line six turnaround for judge your neighbor worksheet instead of, I don’t ever want to, it turns around to I’m willing to, or I even look forward to this bad thing happening again. It doesn’t mean that I’m out there trying to make bad things happen to myself.

Mm-hmm. But they do happen. And so I’m willing, or I even look forward to that because the gift in that is it’s going to be a chance for me to do some deeper work. Maybe get to a place where that kind of thing doesn’t bother me anymore. And that’s happened. There’s so many little issues, or maybe not little issues that used to drive me crazy, make me mad, make me angry.

Everything that [00:29:00] they really don’t, I just, they don’t touch me anymore. You know? I have other ones still, but there’s some ones, there are many that are just not. They’re just not an issue. You might as well be, you know, it’s, you can say those words to me, but I’m just not, it just blows right through me because I’ve, there’s nothing sticky there on that particular issue.

So that is the gift of these little bits of inquiry on whatever comes along.

So that was fun. Thank you guys. Really nice to hang out with you guys. Just chill and uh, no motive here. Just go with the flow. So that’s how I like these open sessions to be and there’s never any I. [00:30:00] Uh, pressure from my side that anyone has to do the work or anyone has to even ask a question, you know, I can just sit and chat too.

That works. So, or you can facilitate me sometime. That’s also fun, uh, as well. So these are really open sessions, uh, just being with each other and, um, just really glad that you’re here. Thank you.

If you would like to participate in open sessions like the one we’ve heard just now, go to the work as meditation.com and then click on the open sessions link there and you can sign up, become, uh, uh, someone who’s able to participate. These are open to everyone, so I request that you sign a release form so that we can share these.

Openly with everyone. If you’re willing to do that, then it’s a great way to hang out with us. Like, as you can see in [00:31:00] today’s session, there’s just no pressure to say anything to even do the work together, but it’s a great coming together of people who are interested in the work of Byron Katie. Next, I’m going to read one of my newsletter articles called You Can’t Push Someone Down and Pull yourself up at the same time.

When you push someone off, like if you’re at the lake on a, on a dock, if you push someone off, you often go in too. What are the ways to push someone down? The most obvious ways to push someone down are to be physically violent or to say hurtful things. More passive ways of pushing someone down are to exclude them or to avoid them to give.

Give them the look, to ignore them, to slam a door, or even to be sarcastic [00:32:00] in one sense, pushing someone down works, I guess. I guess that’s why we all do it. As long as I am more powerful than you, I can push you down and there are basically no repercussions for me. I win. You lose, and you no longer bother me.

That’s one way to solve a problem, but it only works if you are the most powerful player in the game. If there’s anyone more powerful, too bad for you, it’s kind of like the rule of the jungle, the survival of the fittest, if you will, and you better be the strongest one or you’re in trouble. But there’s a more subtle limitation to pushing someone down, and this is something we don’t often pay attention to, but it comes out from doing the work.

When I push someone down, if I really pay attention, something feels off inside to me. I often ask myself the question, does this bring me peace or [00:33:00] stress? And my experience is that it always brings me stress. It can be a little confusing because sometimes I get a kind of negative pleasure when I dominate somebody, but when I really pay attention, the underlying belief, the underlying feeling is stressful.

It feels small. I feel separation, and I feel defensive. This is not about right or wrong. Any religion will tell you rules about right and wrong, and that’s not my interest here at all. This is about noticing what works for me, my own internal experience and what doesn’t work for me. In my experience, this is self noticing, not rule following, and there’s a very big difference.

In fact, I look forward to pushing someone down again so I can continue to notice the effect of this. That’s like the open scientific [00:34:00] approach to, to exploring my own inner experience rather than just following a dogma or a rule. And it gets even subtler. Even when I push someone down in my mind, I don’t even say anything.

I don’t do anything to them. Even when I do that internally, in my mind, I still feel it. The same feeling of separation, defensiveness. It’s there inside of me, even when I’m not overtly mean. And these small feelings can balloon into larger feelings of anger or depression, and this is what we’re interested in in the work of Byron Katie.

We’re interested in the internal experience. That’s the, that’s the only thing we’re interested in, in the work of Byron Katie. So it’s not about winning or losing, it’s not about right or wrong, it’s about noticing, oh, I’m feeling a little separation inside. I’m feeling a little defensiveness inside [00:35:00] when I’m pushing someone down.

That doesn’t work for me. Luckily, the work allows me to connect the dots. When I do the work. I notice that when I push someone down, even in my mind, it hurts me. That’s all. Now I know where my pain comes from. I don’t need to do anything more than notice this by doing my work until I get it. Once I do stopping, pushing someone down is automatic because I don’t like to hurt myself.

And here’s a quote from Byron Katie and her book, loving What is, I am a lover of what is not because I’m a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality.