How Highly Sensitive People Can Stay Open Without Feeling Naive: Navigating The Work of Byron Katie

Client 2: Todd, I have a question.

Todd: Yeah, sure. I.

Client 2: How, how can you know when it’s the right time to work on a thought? Like, you know, to that perfect timing when you say like, okay, I’m open enough to actually do the work on it, instead of like trying to do the work and thinking that you’re doing it, but you’re actually just out of it.

Todd: That was a great question. Yeah. You know, the prerequisite for doing the work is having some openness, right? You have to be open enough to question yourself and, uh, I’m not always open. Uh, [00:04:00] so I don’t have any magic formula. My approach is, uh, is test it, try it. Um, the worst that can happen is you find out that you’re not so open and.

No harm done. You know, it just didn’t get that far with it or didn’t really go that far. Okay, no problem. Um, but then if it’s still an issue, it will show up again and I trust that. So I’ll catch it next time or. I might just be feeling a little more ready to question a thought a little later, and I just have it in the back of my mind.

Yeah, I’ll get to that when I’m more ready. And then at some point you just think, yeah, I think I’d like to question that one today. And so it’s like I said, there’s no magic formula, but it’s more about listening to yourself and noticing [00:05:00] when you’re open, how much you’re open and. Trusting your gut. You know, often when I’m working with myself or with clients, I’ll list out a bunch of stressful thoughts.

We’ll just kind of brainstorm and have a bunch of stressful thoughts on paper, and then I’ll ask which one, which one do you feel drawn to? Which one would you like to go towards? And that’s a sign of openness. I’m open to exploring that one or questioning that one. And often it’s because that one has the most charge on it, um, which is, is also there.

And sometimes extra charge makes you not open, but sometimes extra charge makes you open because when it’s charged, when you don’t want that charge, you, you don’t, it feels stressful. So yeah, the work starts with stress and then moves from there. And so my. Bottom line is I trust my stress, I trust it. [00:06:00] It’s gonna tell me where I to do the work next.

And so if I feel drawn to do the work on something, I just trust that and go there. If I feel resistance to doing that, then I might question my resistance thought first. Like, if I question this thought, I’m gonna be this, I’m not. I’m gonna be in danger. I’m gonna be. Not safe or something like, there’s often a resistance thought to doing the work.

So you can question that before you start questioning the thought that you want to do. And that can be like opening it up and getting you ready before you dive in to do the work. But in terms of a right time, there’s no perfect right time and. Even if there is not a whole lot of openness inside, you can still do the work.

I’ve done it myself and I’ve watched clients do the work where they weren’t that open, and something about the work can [00:07:00] start to open as you do it. So that’s another cool thing. You can say the work needs openness to start, but that’s not a hundred percent true. The work. It can start from anywhere and then you can find openness as you’re doing the work.

But if you’re already open before, then all the better. So either way.

Client 2: Great. Thank you.

Todd: You’re welcome.

Client: I, I thought of a question, um, that came up while you were answering that one. There’s been a couple of times in doing the work where, when I get to, um, question four, who, who am I without the thought? Um, how do I describe this?

It. It’s like, it’s not a [00:08:00] positive thing. It’s like, um, like okay, like it happened to me yesterday. I was questioning something around money and um, and health insurance. And it’s like if, um, I have to have health insurance, something along those lines. Um. Then it’s like, who am I without that thought? It brings me into this, there’s such a protection around that thought that, that like, it’s like it would bring me into a place of being too naive, um, irresponsible or something.

Yeah. So I’m just curious about that. ’cause I noticed that now happened again a second time and just wanted to know if anybody else has that experience and then. Um, you know where to go with that.

Todd: Yeah. Great question. Really important one too. Uh, the work’s job is to challenge [00:09:00] anything we have any thought we have just to, it just stands there kind of innocently.

Oh, you have that thought? Let me challenge it. Oh, you have that thought. Let me challenge it. It’s gonna challenge anything and, and you can. I guarantee that if you’re feeling stressed about something, that there’s something off inside also, that when it gets challenged, can, uh, can get clearer or can be let go of, and so there’s less stress around something, but there’s also a fine line where.

My thinking also determines my action. And, uh, there is a value in being responsible in the world and taking care of oneself, having health insurance and that kind of thing. Um, so my, my go-to feeling for this is that I, I have common sense also and that. Just because the work [00:10:00] challenges a thought that I’m having doesn’t mean that I have to ride that all the way into the sunset and be completely, you know, like taken away, um, by that turnaround.

I, I. I use my common sense to find out where the balance is and and balance is a big, big concept for me when I’m doing the work, especially turnarounds and also question four, but just you feel when you’ve gone too far with something and so then you can just trust that the real work is listening to yourself, not just the questions and everything.

The questions are there to guide you and to say, Hey, look over here. Test that out. Look there, but. You have to look over there and then see if that makes sense for you. And then take, however, however much of it makes sense for you, and then go with that. And so it’s a process of self, um. Taking responsibility [00:11:00] for yourself.

So one thing that people worry about with the work, and, and it can be it can happen, is if you just take the work as if it’s telling you what to do and it’s now giving you some kind of, you know, it’s like an authority above you or something. But that’s not what the work is. It’s just questions. It’s just saying, is it true?

Can you absolutely know it’s true? And who would you be without that thought and. So play with those questions, but don’t forget that you’re, you’re the boss. You’re the one that, that finally decides what you do with your life and what feels balanced and what feels right. And don’t forget that, um, this part, that, that.

Decides may be off too. Keep that in mind. Oh, that’s, that’s part of this. There’s no solid ground here. But keep checking in and stay honest with yourself instead of trying to please the turnaround in a way which can, can [00:12:00] happen. Or in your case. Question four. Uh, seeing like who would you be without the thought?

I have to have health insurance. Um, you were seeing like. It’s getting into the land of a little bit, not being responsible for myself. And so good to notice. Um, and you might also back it down a notch and say, who would I be without the thought? I have to have health insurance even while being responsible?

Like even like who would I be without the have to, the have to that’s pushing me and making me. Like driving me or making me, um, stressed because there’s a half to in there that’s also got some edge to it or some labor of, of imbalance to it. So let me be without that much of it and then see what’s left.

I might [00:13:00] find I’m still having going for health insurance, but without the have to, without the push or without the force that I may have been using when I was believing the thought originally. So this is the nuance of the work, and it all comes down to paying attention to your, uh, experience and to what makes sense to you.

And finding the, finding that balance. It’s never the want or the. It’s never the want. That’s the problem. It’s the attachment that’s the problem. It’s never the the doing that’s the problem. It’s the pushing myself to do, that’s the problem. So it’s the subtle piece of it that the work’s actually addressing, not the actual action or the actual, um, yeah, that, that the actual doing.

Client: Yeah. That helps. That helps. I, I think [00:14:00] as you’re talking, I’m realizing that there’s a, there’s a tendency, um, for me and probably others as well to, you know, strive to be like, a little bit more evolved than we are in this moment, you know? And, and like, I, I even at times had seen just how. Um, I don’t know, relaxed with things Byron Katie is, and, and like want to mimic that.

She’s like, like, I could imagine, you know, I don’t know in my head my interpretation is that the belief that you need health insurance. Uh, maybe is, uh, not a belief to her. I have no idea. But like, you know, to me, I create this character of somebody who is so evolved that health insurance is just a concept and they, and it’s so like human of me to feel like I need it.

It [00:15:00] must be my ego or something. And so when you’re talking, it’s just, it feels like a lifting of pressure around that. Um. Yeah, I guess that, that striving to, to feel like I need to let go of beliefs that are keeping me trapped or something like that.

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. Very, very important. When you’re doing the work, you have to be honest.

Um, it’s like with question one or question two, I want the honest answer of how I’m actually feeling, not the intellectual version of what I think I should be answering. I wanna know. From inside. What am I? What am I feeling? Is it true? Yes. Okay. I’d rather have that honesty than an intellectual. No, that doesn’t really touch me.

Same with question four. It’s gotta be honest. If I’m pretending I. To be all peaceful. Oh, who would you be without the thought I’d be so peaceful. I would just see that health insurance is just a [00:16:00] concept and I just wouldn’t be so above it all that I wouldn’t, you know, wouldn’t care. Right. So that, who knows whether that’s a good, whether that’s even what an being evolved looks like, but the story of it, I’m trying to imitate what I think is.

Some higher version or higher evolved state, and that’s not the work, that’s me, um, trying to imitate others. And we all do that. It’s natural, but it’s, it’s your own truth that sets you free. So you have to keep coming back to what makes sense to me, what feels right to me, where I am as I am, and, and answer from there.

And. It may not look pretty, it may not look amazing. It may not look spiritual, but I would rather be real than spiritual. And I would say Byron Katie would say the same thing. Yeah. [00:17:00] If that’s what makes the work work, it starts with something real, an emotion, like it got triggered by something that’s real that happened.

I can’t deny it. It’s, I feel it, it’s real. And then if I’m doing the work, honestly, and taking my time with each question and finding what’s actually true for me as best I can see it, then that honesty. Is what transforms my experience and gives me new experience. But if I try to, if I try to rush it or try to, um, be, you know, more evolved than I am, then uh, it becomes like just words.

It becomes like things that we’ve all read in books and, and all of that. And it’s good. It’s maybe true to some degree, but it’s not my truth. And so it doesn’t touch me. It doesn’t really free me. Yeah.

Client: Yeah. That’s interesting. Thank, thank you. I, I [00:18:00] feel a layer of identity ready to release around that coming from being, uh, raised in a, in a strict religion where if, if you, um, it’s tied to this, this concept that if you sin, you won’t go to heaven. I know that might not sound like it relates, but it’s like, for me it’s like there’s a, there’s an inner kind of perfectionist in the spiritual sense.

If I don’t get this right right now, then something bad’s gonna happen. So I better sort of force myself to. Uh, whatever spirituality I’m in at the time, release my ego or, you know, in the, in the context of what we’re talking about now or else. And so when you’re talking, it’s just like, I’m realizing that that’s kind of what’s underneath it and that, that, uh, there could even be a [00:19:00] worksheet around that.

Todd: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah’s a really good point. I’m glad you tied it in with religion because the, what sometimes happens is that we make, you know, we’re interested in spiritual evolution. We all are. Uh, and sometimes we make the external, uh, beliefs in system external. Dogma, if you will, or external structure of, of religion, or no, it doesn’t have to be religion.

Any kind of spiritual practice. Like you can even see where you’re starting to do that little bit with Byron Katie. You know, like that, that tendency is there to, um, take something spiritual evolution, which is an internal process and externalize it. And so I’m making it, uh, I’m trying to. To follow someone, what someone says about spirituality instead of what real spirituality is, which [00:20:00] is learning how to follow myself.

Um, that’s, that’s where all religions point, that’s where all spiritual paths point, but sometimes the, the dis, the, the words and the all the. The structure of religion or spiritual paths becomes more distracting almost than, uh, helpful in that way. Not, not that it’s not helpful, but we get distracted by it.

If you really listen to the message, it’s saying, go check it out. Go see what you, what’s your experience? Come, you know. Kingdom of Heaven is within, like that kind of stuff, right? So that’s where, it’s, where it moves, where, where it’s pointing. But we’re stuck on looking at the billboard going, oh, I wanna be like that billboard there, and the billboard saying, go check to see who you are.

So. That’s the problem sometimes of having external, uh, support. [00:21:00] Uh, and it’s, uh, and you gotta have it because otherwise we’re also don’t, we don’t figure things out. So there’s a kind of a catch 22 there, but if you can be aware of it and if you can, um. Just pay attention to what’s actually being asked.

Like you asked Byron Katie, her main words, she’ll say over and over again are, don’t believe a word I’m saying. Check it out. You know, test it for yourself. So that’s the calling. And um, and I think all great religions have that to some degree. So it’s a matter of, of not getting distracted by the messenger and, and, and.

But rather listening to the message and even then letting that go and just finally listening to yourself, I think of the work, how I define it for myself. The work is a way of listening to myself and it doesn’t need any, um, there’s [00:22:00] nothing that I need to imitate to do that. In fact, the more I imitate, the more the farther away I get from.

My own experience. The problem is all of life is set up this way, religious or not religious. We’ve been, we grew up, we’ve trained, we, it’s the way the world works. We look to others to learn how to read and write and play sports and do all the things that, uh, we do in life. And so we’ve, we’ve followed people, we’ve imitated people our whole lives, and that’s normal.

Um, so. Spiritual path sort of come, says, okay, now we’ve come this far and now let’s try going back in the opposite direction and start asking ourselves, and let’s start looking what is, what is my truth? And that’s what the work always is asking. And so what is, yeah, everybody says this. Even Byron Katie or whatever, you [00:23:00] know, whatever you think it is that is that you’re trying to follow, just.

Just bring, you know, bring it into question and then start listening and finding out what your truth is. ’cause only that is gonna be able to set you free. Otherwise you’ll look and everyone will say, you sound just like her. You’re amazing and all that. But it’s hollow inside because it’s just a copy.

It’s just sort of a, and what’s missing is the real you, which is different from. Any other person, and, uh, you have to discover that. Only you can discover that. And so these questions are just to help, to move in that direction. But it’s always good to remember that, that it’s, it’s that process of listening to myself that makes it all work.

That’s the, that’s the heart of it. Um. And then, and then I can compare my experiences to others. I can [00:24:00] see what it’s like, okay, yeah, some people do it this way, this person does it this way, and that’s fine. But in the end, that’s just different expressions of, uh, and what’s my way? What makes sense to me and where am I right now?

Uh, and yeah, maybe somebody’s got a lot of experience. Great. But I have my experience. Lemme just stick with that. So many words, many ways to say the same thing. Yeah.

Client: Yeah. Uh, that, that really resonates. So what do you do, Todd? If you get to a turnaround? So let’s, when I did the worksheet yesterday and my turnaround was, I, I don’t need health insurance. I, I kind of felt, um. Like, I hit a, a, I hit, I hit a stopping point there and I, I felt a little bit frustrated. I felt like maybe I’m doing the work wrong or maybe I am.

Um, [00:25:00] maybe, what did I feel like, let me go back. It was like, um, I don’t need health insurance. I was like, this is stupid. Like, and then, and then I’m, and then I feel bad ’cause I’m like gonna give up on this worksheet.

Todd: Yeah. One of the things I tell myself from time to time is that just because it’s a turnaround doesn’t mean it’s true, and that gives me a lot of freedom.

It means that, okay, I. Shotgun approach. We just had a bunch of turnarounds thrown out there, uh, which are just technical turnarounds of a statement. And let’s see, uh, how many of them are true? And not all of them may be true. And if I give myself that freedom, it allows me to really look at the truth of what makes sense to me as opposed to trying to, um, trying to, [00:26:00] uh, push myself.

Beyond what makes sense to me and that’s the danger, right? So a turnaround is just a suggestion. I think of it as a new hypothesis. A hypothesis is not a proof, it’s just a theory. And so, oh yeah, you don’t have to have health insurance. That’s a new hypothesis that, let me see. Is there any evidence to support that?

And living in my situation where I am, um. I look and look and look and maybe I don’t find anything. I’m like, okay, well, interesting theory, interesting hypothesis. I’ll leave it open. I’m not just gonna close the book, but, uh, at this point I don’t see that as making a. Sense to me. So fine. You can move on.

You can let, this is you landing in your truth, just what I was talking about. Um, and, and then finding what makes sense to you Now. You can still play with it. I mean, you might find, yeah, I don’t [00:27:00] have to have health insurance because, um, I don’t have to survive a major illness. Right. I could, I could just. I could just die or, uh, I don’t have to have health insurance.

Um, like Right. Or I could be, I could have something that could have been dealt with in the medical system, but I didn’t, and it kind of crippled me and I’m happy with just being crippled. Okay, that’s fine. My choice. I don’t have to have health insurance. So that’s getting that subtle piece of, it’s not, I’m not.

Required. It’s not push, it’s not absolute, but when I look at it, and it just makes sense to me, if the healthcare is not covered by the government and uh, I have a choice between paying insurance and being covered for bigger things that I wouldn’t be able to have anyway. [00:28:00] It’s consider considering what’s available to me.

It’s my preference to have health insurance. So that’s how it works. It’s, it’s just feeling. Um, what makes sense to you, but also playing devil’s advocate with yourself. Okay. I don’t have to, I don’t have to. Nobody’s making me. Um, or you might find other reasons. I’m just a chance taker and I’m willing to take the chance and I think I’m healthy enough that I’m, I’m gonna do that.

I know I did that for a few years and that was okay with me and then, then didn’t make sense to me. You know, so just, there’s no right answers. There’s no right answer. Health insurance is not good. Health insurance is not bad. It’s just, and I don’t have to have it, but I, but it’s not bad to have it. So this is the, the more you can have an open mind as you’re playing with the turnarounds, the more you’ll see all different sides of [00:29:00] it and, um, you can really explore that way.

But ultimately, having kicked up all these examples and all these turnarounds, you’re the final one that has the final say on what makes sense to you and where you go with it. Um, that was just some great brainstorming and now where does it land for me and. That’s, that’s it. So I’m so secure and safe in that, like I’m, I’m not getting pushed around by the work.

That’s not what happens. Uh, I’m not being told what to do by the work. I don’t take orders from the work. The work is just questions. I. I use the work to look at all the different angles that I would’ve never looked at before, and then can, having seen all those angles, I naturally gravitate towards some or the other and, and I find balance, and that’s what works for me.