Managing Jealousy and Perfectionism as a Highly Sensitive Person Through Inner Work

Client: [00:00:00] Okay, so my question is about jealousy. And I watched videos in the past where Byron Katie was working with women that had jealous thoughts in their relationships. Something like, you know, around the idea of, you know, my partner shouldn’t have female friends or something like that. So I’ve watched them and it still like rubs up against me when I think of it.

Todd: Welcome to Wiggle Room, a podcast where we start with stress and see if there’s a different way to look at the same situation. You know, we tend tend to think that freedom comes from changing things, from making the situation different. But in this podcast we look at how just. Changing the perspective is enough to give a little bit of wiggle room so that you can experience the same situation with a, with a sense of more freedom.[00:01:00] 

I’m Todd Smith, and on the program today, a participant does the work. And when I say the work, I mean the work of Byron Katie, which is a way to question what you think. This participant does the work on, uh, jealousy and, and situation where somebody, uh, was spending time with, with, uh, like her, her love interest was spending time with other women as friends, and she was feeling, uh, jealous about it.

So we do the work, she does the work on the thought. He should be opened and honest about it. So let’s dive into the work of Byron Katie together. This is just a simple way to question what you think. And, uh, we’re gonna start, as always with the open session recording. This is an unedited, uh, recording and I do that so that you can experience what it’s like just to do the work in an, just the [00:02:00] way anyone would do the work.

This is just normal people doing the work. Uh, and so here we go.

Client: Okay, so my question is about jealousy and I watched videos in the past where by, and Katie was working with women that had jealous thoughts in their relationships. So some like, you know, around the idea of, you know, my partner shouldn’t have female friends or something like that. So I’ve watched them and it still like rubs up against me when I think of it.

Um, so for example, I was dating someone who was going to Vegas with one of their female friends and saying, oh, you know, it’s nothing. But I was not okay with that. And so I think, you know, and I read something the other day that said, what’s kind of, what’s so bad about your partner having a relationship outside of the relationship?

And I thought, I still don’t love it. So I thought this would be a good [00:03:00] opportunity to bring my very big question around jealousy to you, because I really have a hard time with that one. 

Todd: Yeah, yeah. It’s a, it’s a good one. It’s definitely a good one. So, um, so what is your, what is, what is the hard point, point of it for you?

What is it that, that, um, that. Uh, like what are some of the stressful thoughts? Let’s just kind of brainstorm a little bit. 

Client: Yeah. So stressful thoughts are, you know, if he goes away with this woman to Vegas, he’ll be, you know, unfaithful or, um, he’s not really into the relationship like I think he is. Um, so it’s sort of that thought of if we’re in a relationship, I’m okay if you have male friends, but I’m not okay.

If you have female friends. Right. And for most of the things that I’m reading or seeing, that’s not really a healthy perspective. And, [00:04:00] um, again, watching Byron Katie go some of the work with the girls of, you know, what’s the harm of, of him having a female friend or something? I’m like, Ooh, I get it. It doesn’t feel good to think of that.

Um, so I guess it’s an insecurity on some level. Um, it’s maybe has to boil down to trust. Um, and I mean, jealousy doesn’t feel good, doesn’t feel good for you, doesn’t feel good for the person that’s receiving it even, right? It would push them away. But I still struggle with that, like, I think Yeah, no, I’m, I’m just not good with you going to Vegas with another girl.

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I think the first thing that comes up with this kind of thing for me and anything in the work is that there’s no, there are no. Right answers here. There’s no absolutes in terms of like, you know, it should be okay or it isn’t okay. Like there’s, [00:05:00] there’s different opinions. Everyone has their different experiences.

Um, but, but in this kind of work. Just sitting in this, we’re looking for our own answers and, and who knows? Your answer may be different than what someone else discovers when they, when they do this work. Um, so I like to keep that kind of openness that, that it’s, it’s not like we’re doing the work to try to, um, be okay with something that we’re not okay with.

Maybe it’s just we’re never gonna be okay with that. Um, that’s not. That’s not necessarily a problem either. But what can be a problem is the, like, the stressful feeling you can trust that stressful feeling. If there’s some stressful feeling going on, then that shows me where my work is. Like that shows me where I’m, I’m not at peace with the way things are.

And so [00:06:00] being at peace with the way things are is what we’re doing when we do the work. Um, but. I can be at peace with the way things are and still have opinions about where, how I would like things to go or who, you know, what works for me, what doesn’t work. I can still have preferences. Um, that that doesn’t have to change.

It’s just, okay, why is this getting me right? Why, what is, what is, why is this really. So let’s keep brainstorming. What other stressful thoughts come up? Um, as, as you notice that emotion in you, 

Client: uh, the stressful thoughts that come up are, you know, he’s hiding something or he is lying about something. You know, in the past he, you know, and this, and I’m not with this person anymore, but it’s still alive inside of me when I think of it.

’cause I’m like, it irritates me. He had all these female friends and I’d be like. Oh, who’s that one? I’d be like, don’t even go there. Like, don’t even ask questions about it. I’m thinking, okay. I was just curious. Like, I [00:07:00] couldn’t keep track of all these different female friends, right? Mm. Um, so it was, um, you know, the thoughts around that were, he’s lying to me.

He’s hiding. He has a, a separate life, um, that I’m, I don’t even have permission to in, to inquire about, um.

So pretty much that I would say. 

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. So these are, these are good, you know, like he’s lying to me or is, uh, or, you know, that’s, that’s stressful. I can, uh, I can, I can feel that for myself. Like, you know, I can’t trust him or he’s hiding something or, um, and what about. We’re kind of writing a worksheet in a way here, like what should he be doing?

What, what would it be? What would be, how you would advise him to be [00:08:00] different? 

Client: To be open and honest about it. 

Mm-hmm. 

Client: If I’m asking, oh, who is that? It’d be the same if it was a male friend. Right. You know, oh, which friend are you talking about? You know, if you’re getting to know someone and their friends and people, it’s more of a, to him it was a big threat.

To me it was, it was more curiosity, but also on some level like. A little bit of judgment because I’m thinking, well, how many are there? Like you’ve, you know, how many, how many of us are there? Right? Um, so I think he should have been honest or more open, um, less defensive about it. Um,

less selfish in some way. 

Todd: Yeah. Well, let’s, let’s play with that one. I like that he should be open and honest about it, you know, like that that seems to, to be a part of this that’s [00:09:00] could be worth exploring. Um, if you want, we can do the work on it. 

Client: Sure. Yeah. 

Todd: Okay. So he should be open and honest about, about it.

Is it true? Yes. Yeah. And can you absolutely know it’s true. He should be open and honest about it.

Client: I mean, I want to say yes, but I guess it’s more of, well, if he doesn’t, then it’s more about me or boundary, I suppose.

So, I mean, I do think he should be open and honest. 

Todd: Yeah. And that’s all we’re looking for is that just that honest feeling. Like, what is the truth for me as best I can see it [00:10:00] right now? And that, and that just can come out just simply as, yeah, yeah, that’s what I want. That’s what he should do, and I can trust it.

You know, like this doesn’t mean that it’s. The absolute truth, even though I’m asking can you absolutely know it’s true. It’s as best I can see. Is it true? Can I absolutely know It’s true. He should be open and honest about it. And if it’s a yes, it’s a yes. I love it. So how do you react? What happens when you think he should be open and honest about it and you’re asking him and he is not wanting to talk about it?

Client: I feel really like tense. Like I almost wanna go away. I’m almost like, okay, I’m not welcome here. I almost like wanna run away. Like, that’s my, my instinct is, oh, I just gotta get away from this, you know? Um, so I guess, um,[00:11:00] 

I, I almost feel like I almost in that moment feel guilty. Like, it’s almost like he’s making me feel guilty for even asking. Because I mean, you don’t wanna be that jealous person, but on the same token, I, you know, I’m, I’m asking questions about, you know, okay. When you stay, are you in the same room, in the same bed?

Like, what’s with all the questions? Well, um, like, I mean, I don’t think most people would be okay with you just going off, you know, for a week’s vacation with someone of the opposite section in the same bed, you know? Um, so I just felt, um. Like, like guilty for even asking, like uncomfortable. Um, so he’s, you know, shutting it down.

I feel really uncomfortable with the situation, with how I feel even,

Todd: yeah. So when he is not open and honest about it and you think he should [00:12:00] be, then I think part of the reaction I’m hearing is that you start to try to. Open him. Try to, to um, f find out what is behind the, the veil and then feel guilty because Yeah. Yeah. 

Client: You know what’s so funny? It’s almost like I shut down.

I want him to be open and honest, but yet I shut down. 

Todd: Interesting. Yeah. 

Client: Yeah. ’cause in that moment I’m just like, yeah, I just have no, no. There’s nothing else to say to you at this, right? Like, and I, I wouldn’t say that. I’m just like, okay. But then it, it shows up later. ’cause I haven’t said anything about it or I haven’t been honest about how I feel.

I haven’t been, I haven’t been, been honest how I feel. So it comes back up. So that’s really interesting. I shut totally down. 

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. So this is how you react when you believe that he should be [00:13:00] honest about it and you and he isn’t. Then like it becomes a roadblock to all communications now. Like that one bridge to get across has been blocked and there’s no other route.

Client: Mm-hmm. Because then I feel nauseous, I feel. Um, you know, almost like I don’t wanna be around him anymore, you know, and then we’d be together, right? Like, we’d have plans for what we’re doing. I’m just like, what am I doing here? You know? So just, um, like torment, it’s like the, you know, and then all of those thoughts that I mentioned earlier come in, like, he’s, he’s lying.

He’s, uh, you know, and he’s a very, very flirty guy. So I mean. These were, these were not innocent conversations or things that were going on. So yeah, maybe that’s what I think anyway. 

Todd: Yeah. Okay. So [00:14:00] same situation. You’re asking him about this trip to Vegas, say, and he’s not going there. Who would you be without the thought that he should be open and honest about it?

Client: I’d be gone. I’d be like, Hmm. Whether or not like I, I’d be gone. I’d be like, okay, well you don’t wanna talk about that. That’s fine. So you can find someone who’s okay with all of that. I’d be gone and then I had no thoughts. 

Todd: Yeah.

One. You can see from your answer to question four, who would you be without the thought that that part of how you react. Question three is you stay around when you’re not, when it’s not working for you. Like so without the thought, you’re just outta there. 

Client: Yeah. Because in the moment I’m thinking [00:15:00] how inconvenient it would be if I said, okay, I’m just gonna go home.

He’s already driven all this way, and right now I’m like. That’s just, that’s, that’s actually Ill, like, that’s Ill thinking like, that’s not healthy thinking, so that’s really interesting. What, and, and the part I don’t understand is why I have such a thought that I should not be jealous. And is that even jealousy?

Right? I think it’s more about that. Maybe why do I feel so? Guilty about maybe I’m, maybe I should just be okay with, you know what, I’m not okay with you having female friends and going to Vegas for a week, and maybe that’s okay. Maybe that’s not jealous. Maybe that’s just a level of, uh, what’s required for, for me to feel safe in a relationship.

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. So cool to see. Yeah. So that is, there’s an underlying belief I should not be jealous and that can be questioned, uh, separately. But, you know, without this thought, I. That he should be open and honest about it. I’m seeing a lot of [00:16:00] of clarity coming out 

Client: like it 

Todd: gets, what’s that? 

Client: It feels a lot better.

Todd: Yeah. It’s 

Client: less about him and more about me. Like I, you know, and it’s not like I wanted to change him, but on some level I did, because I did want him to, you know, tell me, okay, it’s someone I went to school with and it’s strictly platonic. There’s never been anything there. And I hang out with her and her husband, like those types of information or I, I was looking for him to, um, answer those things so that I wasn’t making all these things up in my head.

Um, 

Todd: okay. So let’s try turning the thought around. He should be open and honest about it. 

Client: I should. Okay. I should be open and honest about how I’m feeling. 

Todd: Yeah. So why would that be [00:17:00] as important or maybe even more important than him being open and honest about his, his female friends? 

Client: Because I’m the one that suffers, you know, he’s, he’s doing what he’s doing or not doing and he’s just moving along and I’m the one who’s sitting there in turmoil about what’s not being said or what’s not allowed to be discussed.

Yeah. 

Client: I suffer. He is having a great time and I’m thinking I’d rather be anywhere but here.

Todd: So how, what are some of the ways you could be honest and open with him about this? In that situation, say,

Client: um, maybe to explain why I’m asking or why it’s important to know. Okay. To not let him intimidate me by shutting it down and saying, you know, we’re not talking about this. [00:18:00] Um, sort of like honoring the part of me that wants to 

Todd: Yeah.

Exactly. It takes courage. 

Mm-hmm. 

Client: Yeah. ’cause it’s almost like, seems easier not to say anything, but then it’s not, ’cause like I, even when I think about it, I feel all those feelings of being in that moment, it just feels awful and maybe would be not comfortable, but maybe less awful to say.

Todd: Exactly. It’s like you’re, you’re off in another place that he can’t access, just like you can’t access when he is in Vegas. Um, you know, like there’s a, so it’s, it’s, it’s hard, hard to connect. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I should be open and honest about it. Yeah. [00:19:00] And let’s say he doesn’t, um, doesn’t want to go there, doesn’t wanna, doesn’t want to hear it, anything like that.

So how is being open and honest still, um, a good thing for you to do? I, 

Client: I could, um, share in the fact that that’s just not okay for me. It’s just not what I’m. Interested in spending my time doing or not doing? 

Todd: Yeah. Something. It’s like not, I don’t have to change the other person. It’s not like there’s, it’s right or wrong, even.

It’s just, this doesn’t work for me. Like I’m looking for something different. 

Hmm. 

Todd: So either way, either he hears where you’re coming from and decides it’s worth it for him to. Change some things. That’s one great [00:20:00] thing of come being open and honest with him or he is closed and you’re free to say, okay, well it doesn’t work for me.

Client: Yeah. Very interesting. Even think like even from that perspective, I think back and I sort of just kind of giggle. I think, you know, um. It could have been a lot easier. You know, this was on and off for quite some time. Yeah. And um, you know, I can’t be with someone who’s jealous and I’m thinking now I’m thinking, I don’t know if I even was jealous.

I think maybe I just was responding to the lack of, um, honesty of what was going on. 

Todd: Right, right. And so the only place like. What made it complicated is you weren’t being open and honest about your experience, so then you’re sort of caught in this no man’s [00:21:00] land. Mm-hmm. 

Client: Very interesting.

Todd: So cool turnaround. I should be open and honest about it. And that kind of has two. Two sides to it. They’re really kind of two turnarounds turned combined in one. There. It’s like, I should be open and honest about it with myself and I should be open and honest about it with him. And we’re kind of, we’ve kind of been, they’re, they’re very similar, like, but if you, if you tease them apart, there can be some, some subtle differences in that.

Even just being honest with myself. It’s probably 90% of it right there. 

Client: Mm, yeah. It is

interesting. [00:22:00] Thank you. So let’s look 

Todd: at the, something more there. 

Client: No, I was saying thank you. 

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. So let’s look at a turnaround to the opposite. He should be open and honest about it. What would be the, the opposite of that? 

Client: So he should be open and honest about it. Uh oh. He shouldn’t be open and honest about it.

Todd: Right. So how’s it understandable that he would not be open and honest about it?

Client: Because that’s just not who he is. He’s. He needs to, um, do what he’s doing and have total privacy around it. Um, he needs to maybe even have control over what we’re talking about. I don’t know. So maybe he just shouldn’t because quite simply ’cause he is not so, [00:23:00] he is who he is. 

Todd: Yeah. And again, it’s not right or wrong, so this is where what he is exploring and that’s for whatever reason, what is working for him at this stage, at this point,

for him not to explore that might actually not work for him, might actually be, might be worse. Who knows?

Client: Yeah. And that’s the interesting part. I don’t know that I ever thought, well, I, I did think he shouldn’t go. Right? Like, I did think, like, I didn’t, did not like that idea. Um, yeah, I do think, I think he shouldn’t have gone go on. Um, so yeah, some, definitely some judgment there with that. Um. [00:24:00] I was fighting against what?

What was reality 

Todd: exactly. Like wanting him to be different than he is. 

Yeah.

Todd: So he shouldn’t be open and honest about it. Like what are the benefits for you of him not being open and honest about it?

Client: What are the benefits of him not being open and honest? Well, it frees me from not having to deal with similar conversations again. 

Todd: It really simplifies things. 

Client: Yeah, it does. Yeah. If I’m gone, I don’t have to deal with that anymore. Um, so he shouldn’t, maybe he’d say something that would actually make it worse.

Maybe there’s stuff that I wouldn’t even wanna know. 

Todd: Um, good point. Good point. 

Client: And then I’d be going back over those details. Um. What’s a benefit to him? You know, him not opening [00:25:00] up

almost on some level, it gave me permission to just see how the whole thing wasn’t working. You know, maybe if he answered all those questions, then I’d be like, oh, okay, well he is answered the questions, but it’s still not feel right and still be stuck in that spot. So. Maybe it kept it intense enough for me to see what I needed to see.

Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. It may not, this may not be what I want to see, but, but seeing it is a good thing, you know, actually having it come into my, my awareness. Yeah. Not a bad thing. So sometimes it takes that kind of, you know, him not doing it right. To allow that to happen. 

Client: Yes. Yeah, I can see that now. So if I were to, you know, and I’m, and I’m gonna do that, um, [00:26:00] you know, I should not be jealous.

I’m gonna take a look at that. What about like, should I do the work around, he should have female friends. 

Todd: Sure. 

Client: Yeah. You know, maybe that’s something I can explore too, because even as I’m thinking of this. I don’t, I just, it, I still don’t feel comfortable with that, which mm-hmm. For this situation, I feel okay about that.

I’m like, yeah, no, I, I don’t think I should have been comfortable with that because I wasn’t. Um, so that’ll be interesting to explore that. 

Todd: Yeah. Yeah, you should not have female friends. Like see where you go with that. And it doesn’t mean, um, again, that there’s any absolutes here. It’s just, it’s just come to just keep playing with your own experience as you’re doing this.

’cause that’s, that’s all that counts. Like mm-hmm. I’m, I’m stressed by that, so let me, let me explore it and, yeah. Yeah. Interesting. [00:27:00] Yeah. You know, when you, when you have an open mind and you’re doing this work, you can, you can work on anything. You can just work on anything. You can go anywhere and, and doing the work is not going to back you into a corner.

Doing the work is not going to trap you. No. Like these turnarounds are something to explore, something to look at on this side and this side and this side, but. They are just options, just different ways of seeing, and I can see the same turnaround in so many different ways. But just asking and looking at that turnaround and, and looking at these, these things that come up, I will find what makes sense to me and I’ll feel that you can feel it.

I always say this is like feeling your way in the dark, right? So you just, you just kind of feel like, oh, that turnaround opens something. I feel something there. And then I. I might start, start moving into a turnaround that seems to [00:28:00] be closing me down. I’m like, okay, well then I’m not really, let me not go too far further in that direction because it’s, it’s the feeling that I’m looking to, to, to be experiencing more freedom.

But I may look at that same turnaround that seemed to be closing me down and, and start to look at the same turnaround in a different way that that opens me up, but still fits that turnaround. So. That’s what we mean by the work is exploration. We just have to explore and, and see and trust this sensitive, uh, this sensitive system that we have to notice what’s, what makes sense, what doesn’t make sense, what resonates, what doesn’t, what um, this work can be boiled down to simply listening to myself.

That’s what we’re doing. And the turnarounds and the questions they give us places to look where we might not look otherwise, so they really can open some, some hidden passage [00:29:00] passageways. But throughout all of that, I’m still just listening and feeling and finding my way in the dark.

Well, thank you. Yeah. 

Client: Thank you very much. Thank you, Wendy, for moving space. Yeah. 

Todd: If you would like to participate in open sessions like we were just listening, then go to the work as meditation.com and you’ll find open sessions there and you can sign up as a guest participant, like, uh, we just heard these people participating.

Uh, or you can sign up just as an audience member just to listen, and this is a great way on a weekly basis to just kind of keep exploring this process of doing the work.

Next, I’m going to read one of my newsletter articles, and this one is called Exploring Perfectionism. This is a subject dear to [00:30:00] my heart, and so let’s, let’s get into it

Exploring perfectionism. Perfectionism has always been an interesting subject for me because I’m a bit of a perfectionist. I love to present a and and I love to present a perfect thesis on this subject, but, um, this, I was gonna say, unfortunately, this thesis has yet to be discovered. Instead, I’m gonna offer you some half-cooked thoughts about perfectionism as a kind of starting point for your own exploration.

In fact, to present a work in progress as I’m doing here is really a turnaround for me, for my own perfectionistic tendencies, and it feels quite freeing to, to share my unpolished thoughts. So here we go. What is the difference between perfection and perfectionism? I love [00:31:00] discovering elements of perfection in life, such as the perfect beauty of the Viola flowers, which I show in the actual article and the ladybug on them.

There’s a perfection in that. I took that photo years ago and, um. As I explore the world, I often find that certain things bring me great joy. Um, whether it’s their beauty, their efficiency, their elegance, their effectiveness. Some things just amaze me and I would say they’re, they’re like perfect. Uh, I say it’s like, like they’re discover I’m discovering some laws of nature or they’re, they’re jewel, like they’re optimal, attractive, and.

Seeing this kind of perfection brings joy. So the only issue is that I tend to get attached to that kind of perfection. I like that feeling of seeing perfection and seeing that and feeling that joy that comes with it. And so those amazing [00:32:00] elements of life become good and everything else becomes not good enough.

That’s what can happen as I start moving from perfection into perfectionism. This also applies to my own efforts. When I accomplish something that I de to be good or perfect, or I do a really good job, then I’m happy, happy with myself. When I fail to accomplish this, when I don’t reach that jewel like state or this optimal version, then I’m not completely satisfied.

It’s a, it’s a less happy feeling and while I’m in the process of doing something. Good or trying to do something good, trying to get to an end point that I think is going to be perfect. Then the result is a feeling of tension inside of me, ’cause I don’t know if I’m gonna succeed or not. I have to try really hard and it’s stressful.

So perfectionism seems to rest in my attachment to good things. It’s not that the [00:33:00] good things themselves are the problem. It’s my attachment to those things that makes it stressful. I’ve basically divided the world into good and bad. I want to be a part of the good and the perfect. Um, and I don’t wanna be a part of the not good or not good enough.

Um. And so now I’m only happy when things are going, you know, when I’ve arrived at some perfect state. So realistically, it’s like I’ve divided the world into 1%, which is perfect, and 99%, which is not good enough. Like those rare moments when things just are like so perfect there, it’s probably like 1%, you know, depending on how you look at it.

And so this becomes kind of a desperate state of affairs because it means that I can only relax when that small percentage of life, uh, shows up, which is that, that jewel like appearance, [00:34:00] perfectionism for me is my attachment to what I consider good, best, amazing, et cetera. This gives an angle, though, for me to do the work on it.

If I question my thinking on the statement. This is good or this is ideal, this is the optimal, uh, outcome. And I question that, you know, this is the optimal outcome. Is it true or that would be ideal? Is it true? Then as I go through the process of doing the work of Byron Katie and questioning my thinking, I may start to expand my mind and I may start to see that that not getting that thing might be.

As good or better, or that that particular outcome may not be the ideal. And so I start to open to other possibilities for finding, uh, finding perfection. Again, perfection can be found literally anywhere, but I [00:35:00] only tend to call it perfection when it’s, when it’s according to some really particular criteria.

So doing the work expands my version of what perfection looks like, and I may start to see perfection. In things that I was considering previously to be not good enough. So it’s a matter of redefining good or perfect. If I can see how not getting what I want is as good as getting what I want, then I’m free.

If I can find that every stage of life, um, is good. Then there’s much less attachment to one particular idealized stage. Everything is born, everything grows. Everything dies. Why would youth be considered the only perfect state? Can I see the perfection in death? Can I see the perfection in old age? Can I see the perfection in the aging process?

This kind of opening of the mind is amazing. And this comes [00:36:00] through questioning or thinking, which is what we do when we use this process of the work of Byron Katie. So take away number one from this line of reasoning is this, if I want to do the work on perfectionism, let me identify what I’m attached to.

Some idealized good. And let me question my thought. I want that. I need that. Or question, this is good, this is best, this is optimal, or this is not good enough. If I’m looking at something that isn’t in that category, so questioning along these lines that I need it, that I want it or that it is good, um, can, can open things in a new direction.

So here’s another thought around perfectionism. I’ve kind of come to think there’s a certain laziness in perfectionism. It’s kind of a funny idea, but what I notice is that it’s often my motive to do something perfectly so that I never have [00:37:00] to do it again. And this is not a bad thing either. Um, you know, I like to do things well, and many times I don’t have to do them again because I’ve done a, I’ve done it well.

But I can get attached to this idea as well. And then this becomes perfectionism. As you can see, the theme coming in is the, the attachment to these good things, these good outcomes, these good, these good things, is what makes it stressful. The attachment is where it starts to become perfectionism. So I pile a lot of value on doing it right, because I believe that doing it right will finally liberate me from all doing in this area.

This is that laziness. I mean, the thoughts I could question of course could be something like I. I want to be done with this or I can’t relax until this is done. Um, or if I do this perfectly, I won’t have to do it again. And kind of at the bottom of the mall is something like this. I don’t like [00:38:00] doing this.

I mean, that can be radical to question like some I. Job, which I think if I do a really good job, I’ll never have to do it again. What I’m really believing is I don’t even really like doing this. So, but is that even true? When I question it, I may find that I actually do like doing that and it allows me to just enjoy the process instead of worrying about whether I get to, uh, a particular outcome or not.

So. This sentence again, I don’t like doing this is a really cool one because the implication of perfectionism is that the goal is better than the process. Who would I be without that story? If I do something because I love to do it, then who cares if I reach some end point or not? There’s a lot of freedom in that.

So let me question. I want the goal. I just want the, yeah, let me question. I just want the goal. I don’t like taking the steps. I [00:39:00] mean, that’s just the essence of this whole thing. And let me turn it around to, I just like taking the steps. I don’t care about the goal. It’s a turnaround. So these are the things to play with if you’re wanting to do the work on perfectionism.

Okay. Here’s another, uh, thought around the idea of perfectionism. And that is perfectionism as an attempt to control others. There’s an enjoy inherent joy in doing things well, but if I feel like I must do things well, then there’s an inherent pressure as well. How does a natural unstressed desire to do something?

Well become a stressed attachment to doing it? Well, for me, there’s often a deeper motive in play. Often, I don’t just want to do something well. I want to do something well so that I gain the respect of someone else, or more importantly, I wanna do [00:40:00] something well to avoid someone’s criticism or disapproval.

This is a big one. These are powerful movers in my mind and emotions, and when they’re at play, doing a good job at something is just a means to an end. Getting approval and avoiding disapproval. And this is what creates the push inside of me to do it perfectly. This is when it becomes stressful, really stressful, and I find that avoiding disapproval is really more the driver than trying to get approval.

It’s the avoiding the disapproval that is, is more stressful for me. If my motive for doing something well is to get approval, um, I will certainly feel pressure to, to do it well. And, and it sort of loses the fun of doing something like in a free way. Um, but on the other hand, if I try, uh, if I try to avoid [00:41:00] disapproval, then it becomes true.

Perfectionism in the worst sense of the word to avoid disapproval requires that there are zero flaws in my work. Um, it must be seen as having zero flaws from every side as well. And I have to spend a lot of time imagining how the other person or people would see it and make sure that it will look perfect for him or her.

So I have to spend a lot of time outside of my own business, outside of myself, looking around, um, and, and trying to op, not optimize something from every point of view. And that’s, that’s a lot of work and can be a lot of stress. And this becomes even harder if I’m trying to please a group of people. Now I have to think of every possible objection and every possible need and do the job so that if it offends no one and pleases everyone, literally an impossible task.

So let’s talk a little bit about doing the work on disapproval, because this is kind of one of the key [00:42:00] concepts that’s coming up here. I really think this is a big piece of it, maybe really close to the core of what makes perfectionism stressful. For me, what makes it toxic is this constant need to do the impossible to always please everyone.

And I say everyone because even one negative remark can destroy everything. For a perfectionist, this requires hypervigilance and tireless work. Even if you’re doing good work, you’re never secure. A thousand likes means nothing. If there’s one dislike to do. The work on this on disapproval is fairly straightforward.

Basically, I’ll write a judge your neighbor worksheet, and I’ll write that worksheet on the person whose disapproval I fear. So on the right, on the worksheet, I’ll write my wants, my needs about that person and all of my [00:43:00] stressful thoughts and when I question them, I may see through some of these attachments.

What I love about the work of Byron Katie is that it, it. Points me in a direction where if I go with it and really start to explore it, it’s often starts to loosen my attachments. ’cause I’m looking at things from, from very different points of view and, and that’s exciting. Ironically, perfectionism at its core has little to do with doing a good job or being a good person or having the perfect whatever.

It has to do with the belief that someone else thinks that what someone else thinks about me is more important than my own experience when I put them above me in this way, my motive in doing things well or being perfect is to prevent that disapproval, which I believe I can’t handle, or to gain their approval.

That’s why one of my [00:44:00] favorite exercises after doing the work on such beliefs is to show up with my affairs half done, you know, to show up kind of sloppy. Sometimes it’s a turnaround for people like me who have these perfectionistic tendencies. It’s not that I don’t value doing things well, it’s that I’m always trying to do things well.

So to not do them well is like, it just gives me permission to, to relax. It’s just freeing not to have to always present things perfectly. And the more I show up that way, the more I realize that I don’t need or even want approval and that disapproval is not so scary as I thought. And I start to enjoy the process of doing things that I love to do because basically I do have a lot of interests.

I do find things fascinating and I do love to do them. So. If I take off the attachment of getting somewhere or getting someone’s approval or avoiding their approval, I’m free to [00:45:00] actually enjoy this, this exploration of life. And that can mean creativity, that can mean, uh, learning that can be so many aspects to, to just living that, um, make any project.

Interesting in and in and of itself instead of, uh, something that I’m doing with this little hidden motive of avoiding disapproval or getting approval. So I invite you to identify who you are afraid of disappointing, and write a worksheet and do the work. Let’s come back to doing things simply because we’d like to do them.

And here’s a quote from Byron Katie, the founder of the work of Byron Katie. From her book, I Need Your Love. Is it true? Great book, by the way. Um, I highly recommend it. An anxiously focusing on the other person, checking for approval or disapproval leaves nobody at home in [00:46:00] yourself, nobody noticing your thoughts or taking responsibility for your feelings.

This cuts you off from the source of real contentment. The outward focus also leaves unnoticed and unquestioned, the inevitably painful thought that if you have to transform yourself to find love and approval, there must be something wrong with the way you are.

So thanks for listening, and you can. Go to the work as meditation.com and get my newsletter, uh, in your inbox every week. Just go, uh, subscribe there and you can also sign up for open sessions as we heard the recording here, and participate in those as well. These are two free ways to stay in the work and [00:47:00] participate in the work of Byron Katie, um, that you may find useful and you’ll also find over.

Five or 600 articles about the work of Byron Katie on that website. ’cause I’ve been writing this newsletter for a very long time, and you may want to just put some search terms in the search bar and see what you come up with. There’s a lot there that you can explore. And as well invite you to check out my courses, like the Work 1 0 1, which is a great course for diving in more deeply into the work of Byron Katie and starting to make this a practice as well as virtual retreats, which are like a weekend where you can go into the work and a group and, um, I have other.

Other, uh, programs as well, inquiry Circle, and, and others as well. So check all that out at the work as meditation.com and, um, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t done so already. And until next [00:48:00] time, I hope you have a wonderful week.