Questioning Everything About The Work (Stress Management and Inner Work for Highly Sensitive People)

Todd: [00:00:00] In this episode, you’ll hear an interview by AAL Ravi, if you notice, he has a lot of experience in doing the work, and he asks some really specific questions about the work based on his experience, and it’s very interesting to listen to. If you would like to get more experience in doing the work, then I highly encourage you to join the Work 1 0 1 course, which is my in-depth online training for the Work one oh for the work of Byron Katie.

You can find this at the work as meditation.com. And then just go to the work 1 0 1.

Client: It’s interesting now that you say it like that. I thought that this may be the experience of being centered. It’s it’s not that I don’t want anything. I may see just value in all directions and then I can choose, and that’s freedom. [00:01:00] 

Todd: Welcome to Wiggle Room, a podcast where we start with stress and look for ways to turn it around.

And we use something called the work of Byron Katie, which is basically a series of questions that you can ask yourself in any stressful situation. I’m Todd Smith and on the program today. We have a special guest AAL Ravi from Israel, and he is asking a bunch of questions to me about the work of Byron Katie.

And what makes this interview especially interesting is the fact that AAL has a lot of experience in doing the work, and he gets into some of the real details and the subtle points of this practice. So I think you’ll enjoy it. There’s no open session recording this time. There’s no newsletter recording this time.

It’s just simply this interview, so let’s get into it.

All right. So thank you [00:02:00] for just inviting me to do a little bit of question and answer with you and to to connect in this way. So I’m looking forward to speaking with you. 

Client: Yeah. Thank you. Okay, so the first question I have yeah. And thank you for being so open to that.

So the first question I have is I saw you actually being facilitated and thought was I don’t have a home. Do you recall that? And I was actually surprised to hear you say yes to both, to, to both the first questions and quite quickly also. So I know that, I know that I have this, a prejudice of like facilitators being so enlightened that you must say no to the first question every time. [00:03:00] But also it looked like you, like the quickness of the response, like all, like almost made me contemplated I’m not doing the work right or something. And because I usually take I close my eyes and like I take a minute or two and I dunno if you have something to say about it.

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for bringing this up. And and yes, questions one and two, even though it’s just an a yes or no answer. Can be a chance to really meditate and consider and like you say, close your eyes, take your time to find what your answer is. And but there’s no absolutes in how you do it.

Like sometimes it’s really these questions are asking me to check in with myself and to see what I find there. And sometimes it doesn’t take that long. I just check in and it’s yeah, that’s a yes. Yeah. [00:04:00] And so what I tend to trust is what is coming out of my heart? What is coming there?

And sometimes it’s a yes. Sometimes it’s even though there’s a little bit of, there I might intellectually I might be able to say, oh, maybe that’s a no. And, but I. But for me, it’s still a yes. Yeah. So I trust that because the work is getting in touch with the part inside here that is stuck.

The part that’s stressed and I’m letting it answer the questions not the wise part of me that knows the answers or whatever. And I also find that yes, the answer yes to is it true or can you absolutely know it’s true is actually often that is my real answer. There actually I often find that with want questions.

I want this. And is it true? Yeah, I really do. And you absolutely know it’s true. Yes, I can. [00:05:00] So I don’t try to make it the answer to be no, I just trust whatever it will be. But. So it’s both things. Yes, you can take some time and I do like also to take time and slow it down, and sometimes I like to go faster and so I give myself the freedom to go either way.

And then it’s the same idea of checking in, seeing what I find on the inside. Yeah. Okay. Cool. I thought maybe I, it reminded me like hearing you how I think you are supposed to answer like in Zen, when, where they ask you a question and like just say the first things that, that comes up.

Client: So I thought you might be doing that, but anyway, I thank you for your question. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Client: And

yeah and another thing, I don’t know if it’s like a question necessarily. But just [00:06:00] to see if you have a response to that. I heard you say and maybe I’m wrong, but I think I heard you say in one of your videos that it’s like when we have or when you have problems, it’s like you maybe first try to solve them and then if it doesn’t work, you do the work that, ah, now I’m not sure you really said that but I dunno if you have something to say about that, of these two approaches.

Todd: Yeah. The work in one sense, if all else fails, you always have the work. I think that was the main point I was trying to make is I. Even if you try to solve things and you can’t solve them on the level of, action and problem solving, then you can question your thinking and you can solve them there.

Not solve them, but find that there’s no problem basically. That’s what the work does. The work doesn’t solve problems. The [00:07:00] work shows you again and again that it’s not a problem. So that is a quote unquote solution, but it’s not a, it’s not a typical solution. It’s not like what we think of solving a problem.

So if I, if I have a money problem and I try to, solve the money problem by getting a job or trying to find more clients or try to spend less money. Those are actions that I can do to solve a problem. But even if I try all those things and I still have the not enough money, or it feels like not enough money, then I can question my thinking that I don’t have enough money.

And I start to see, oh my God, I have enough. I have more than enough. And I start to see all the resources I have, and I start to be, feel that feeling of fullness that comes from seeing that there’s no real problem. There was a problem in my thinking that I didn’t have enough [00:08:00] and from certain perspectives that’s true, right?

I may actually need some more money, but do I really need more money? And so when I question it, I find out, no, it’s fine. I’m okay. I’m okay. So this is I find this to be. A really important concept that, like my podcast is called Wiggle Room. And I love that title because it means, I’m stuck, I’m caught, and I want to just find some way to wiggle myself free.

And there’s two ways to do that. One is the way we’ve always done it. Find out ways to make more money, find out ways to solve the problem, all of that. And now we have this other way called the work where you can you can find the wiggle room on the other side where like the thinking starts to relax and starts to see, oh, it’s not such a big problem anyway.

And my favorite way to do it is both, right? Yeah. The do the work and take [00:09:00] action, do the work on my thinking, say about money. Find out that I have no pressure. I can just be fine with the same money I have. And at the same time. Explore research. How can I make more money? How can, like both things.

And then I have the wiggle room is like opening on both sides to allow me more freedom in both directions. So that’s my favorite way to do it. It doesn’t mean that you have to like, like when you were asking the question it’s not like a sequential thing. Oh, I first tried to solve the problem and then if it doesn’t work, I do the work like that.

It’s more there are two options. I can try solving the problem or I can try doing the work, or I can do both. There’s a lot of options there. 

Client: Cool. Yeah. It amused me to think that your version of enlightenment is like so much wiggle room. 

Todd: That’s it. [00:10:00] Infinite wiggle room. That would be my version of enlightenment.

Yeah. Like wiggle. 

Client: Enlightenment, wiggle meant, 

Todd: there you go. Wiggle meant, 

Client: I do recall though, I don’t know how she meant it and if it was like a way of saying that, but I think I recall Katie in one of her books saying like, if you have a problem, write it down, turn it around. And there’s the solution.

Todd: Yeah. The solution is that there’s no problem. That’s a problem, is a mental concept that I have a problem. I may have no money, but it’s my thinking that tells me I have a problem. I just have no money. I don’t have a problem, I just have no money. And my thinking is that having no money is a problem.

So when I question my thinking, I find out that it’s not a problem. So that’s the solution. Yeah. And what happens is when you [00:11:00] question your thinking, and this has happened to me many times. When I question my thinking and I see that there really is no problem, ironically, I don’t just, it’s not the end.

For some reason, I’m, I have no pressure to do anything, but yet I have no reason not to. And so I start finding creative solutions to my problem in the real world also, those things go hand in hand. I always use the example, I did a lot of work on money probably five, six years ago and I came to the conclusion that I really don’t need any more money.

I have enough and then my partner earns money. I’m, I was earning some money. It was enough. There was no need for more money. And so I really got that, like really solidly, got that, and it was like, so freeing. I started feeling like I’m working a volunteer job and I just get paid sometimes too feels so free and good.

But did I stop [00:12:00] charging money? Did I just go, okay, I’m just going to not play the money game at all anymore? No I continued, in fact, I make more money than I did back then, but the feeling still feels the it’s not a big deal. I still, my, I understand that it’s not, I’m not needing more money, even if money goes down for a while.

So that’s what the work gives me. Like that freedom, that feeling of freedom. And then ironically, when I have that more freedom, I’m actually more effective in taking action. 

Client: Yeah, for sure. Okay. Thank you for that. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Client: I also thought of other kinds of sentences in the work. It’s like I. I want something, I’m find, I find out that I don’t want it, and then it’s like he should, oh, I should that’s the solution, or he shouldn’t, and then there’s no problem.

Yeah. So it’s [00:13:00] cleared it up a little bit. 

Todd: Yeah. And I often find with those turnarounds I want something and then I turn around, I don’t want something, and I find that the turnaround balances the original thought, so I don’t want it. I wanted it and now I find I don’t want it. It’s also true.

I find like they can both coexist together, right? Like I want it and I don’t want it, but I want it in a way that’s not stressful anymore because I also am fine with not having that. So that’s the balance. But it’s the attachment is no longer there. Like the work frees me of that needing to have it.

I want it and only that will make me happy. No, the turnaround gives me, no, if I don’t get it, that will be even better. That will be great. But it doesn’t mean that I now just flip and try not to get what I originally wanted. Maybe I will sometimes, but sometimes I keep wanting without wanting and that feels like a really free [00:14:00] place.

Client: It’s interesting now that you say it like that. I thought that this may be the experience of being centered. It’s it’s not that I don’t want anything. I may see just value in all directions and then I can choose and that’s freedom. Yes. That’s how I just saw it. 

Todd: The opposite of freedom is I want that thing, and if I don’t get that thing, I don’t have, I, I’m suffering.

I don’t, I’m not getting what I want, so I’m limited. Like it’s so limited. I have to have that. But when I do the work, I see. I don’t have to have that. I could have, so I could not have it. I have so many other options. That’s freedom. That’s like more options. That’s all freedom really is. I win.

Great. I lose. Great. Okay. Yeah. When I, when both things are good I’m really feeling free. 

Client: Yeah. Be fearless state of mind. 

Todd: Yeah. Yes, that’s right. 

Client: Okay. Nice. Thank you for [00:15:00] that. Okay. Next question. Okay, so I think my approach lately with the work was it kind doesn’t really matter what I do the work on.

I just do the work. And like the main value is like every time that I do the work, something in me learns to take my thoughts less seriously. And then the more specific thing doesn’t really matter. However, it’s not entirely true in a way. And I saw you speak about root beliefs. And, I don’t know if that’s the how you called it. Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:00] And it’s to my understanding like a root belief. Yeah. If you release it, it’s like more powerful or something and it does more change, which I try not to come from, with an agenda to the work. But regarding this subject of like regular beliefs and like root beliefs, like when do you try to find a root belief when, I dunno if you just can respond to all these things that I said.

Todd: Yeah, sure. I don’t, I also don’t pay much attention to whether it’s a root belief. I don’t even really use that term, but, like whatever, some kind of. Important belief, or it’s, this is like a classification, artificial classification. This is an important belief. This is not an important belief.

This is superficial, this is deep. This is, and my experience is, and I think it’s similar, so I just 

Client: [00:17:00] want to make sure we’re on the same page. So a root belief for me would be like humans are bad and like a, a regular belief would be like my boss doesn’t care about me or something.

Todd: Uhhuh. So it’s like more general versus more specific. Is that kind of what’s going on? Yeah, I think so. 

Client: Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. My boss doesn’t care about me is is, seems like trivial from some point of view of the whole world. Oh my gosh, why do I even bother with that or something and.

Whereas the human humans are, I can’t remember the belief now, but it’s like more global. It feels like more important or something like that. But my experience is and there’s a lot of pieces to this topic here keep directing me if you’re not getting what you’re asking, but the idea in a way that, that, that is more important or [00:18:00] deeper or more rooted, more root or something like that is for me kind of an illusion because it’s such a general belief like humans are what, whatever humans are bad or something like that.

It becomes like this huge, enormous belief to try to question. And often, I don’t even know what I mean by that because it’s so general. So it actually becomes like an impossible kind of. Thing to do the work on. Whereas if I’m in a specific situation, I’m dealing with my boss, then I can I know exactly what I’m talking about and I can do the work on that.

And it will probably deal with the global belief about humans because he’s a human as well, or she’s a human. But one thing with those kind of beliefs is that they can be brought into the specific situation. For example humans I can’t remember what you said, but humans are bad or something. [00:19:00] Yeah.

Bring that into the situation with our, with my boss and then question. Humans are bad in that particular situation. Now it has some meaning and it works the same as he is bad. Really. It’s just a slightly different flavor. And I. It can be doable at that point, but in general, I’m not worried about whether I’m getting to the heart of it.

Is this the real stressful thought or is this the one that will just, when I do that, everything will open up and I’ll be just free and liberated. Like we look for those little key, like the key, like the special wine that’s coming, that then I’ll never have to do the work again. That’s, 

Client: it’s so stressful to, to try to find these magical thoughts.

Totally. 

Todd: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. So what I like to do is trust what comes right. Whatever is showing up for me, I noticed some stress reaction to something that happened in my life. Great. Let’s find out what the stress is. Close [00:20:00] enough. And when I’m writing my worksheet, I don’t even worry if I got it exactly right.

I’m in the ballpark. I’m close and the work works no matter what. And I love what you said at the beginning of this question. It’s it doesn’t, it’s almost like it doesn’t matter what I do the work on. I start getting the idea that it’s my thoughts that keep causing all of my suffering. So the more work I do, the more I start to see that again and again, and I stop it.

It’s just I hold the thoughts more loosely as a result. So that’s the benefit of continuing to do the work. But there is value in working on a specific thing, like something that bothered me because that, that I will learn exactly how to. Look at that situation differently when I do the work on that particular thing.

And that will be freeing in a different way than just [00:21:00] generally thinking, oh yeah, all thoughts are, believing my thoughts stresses me, so maybe I won’t believe them. When, whenever we step out into the generalities, that’s when it stops working so well. It’s like reading philosophy, it’s like really amazing but it doesn’t always touch the particular stresses that I’m dealing with.

So the work has the advantage of going right into the stress that I’m dealing with and bringing wisdom and all that philosophy has and everything into that one place. And now on an experiential level, it shifts. So that’s the beauty of doing the work. Yeah, sometimes just in finding things, I do find that some particular thought really is amazing.

When I work it great, that’s like wonderful. But I don’t worry about if some thought seems trivial, some thought seems big, some thought seems [00:22:00] deep, some thought seems superficial, like I just don’t worry about it. 

Client: Nice. Thank you. And another thing that I was reminded of, now that I saw a video of yours where you spoke about that sometimes people use the work.

I don’t remember exactly, but to my mind it was like sometimes people use the work to kinda run away from their problems. It’s like somebody who needs quote unquote to get a job. It’s might do the work on, I need to get a job and then see try to convince themselves. Yeah. And I remember that I didn’t completely agree that’s a problem or something.

Yeah. So I don’t know. Maybe you can speak about it again. 

Todd: [00:23:00] Yeah. And I would agree with you on that. It’s not necessarily a problem ’cause we can live our lives any way we want. When I was younger I lived in an ashram and my kind of, my ideal would be go and live in a cave and really just meditate all the time.

And so that’s a valid way of living too, right? And I don’t need to have a job and I don’t need to do all the things that, that that we do in the world. If that’s my path, right? So there are. There are infinite number of paths. And so if someone does the work on I need to get a job, and they find out truly they don’t need to get a job, then where’s the problem with that?

There is no problem. That’s it. That’s great. You’re free. Freedom is freedom no matter what anyone else is thinking about it. But it’s just I guess the point I was making is that you can know the difference if you’re doing the work genuinely or you’re doing the work to get, manipulate or try [00:24:00] to get yourself, get justification for something.

There’s a difference. There’s a feeling difference. I’m going to, yeah, so that’s why we say use, if you’re using the work to try to. Not do something that’s, you feel that’s different from genuine inquiry where you’re really questioning, do I need to get a job? Oh my God, I don’t. Wow.

That’s like amazing. So I think that’s the really the only point, it’s the only way to tell the difference. You couldn’t tell from outside, but on the inside you can feel the difference. Whether you’re I used to say like reverse engineering the work. You know what that means?

Reverse engineering. Like you, you know what the, where you want to go and then you set things up so that it will go where you want to go.

Client: Got it. Yeah. Yeah. But that, and then yeah, and [00:25:00] then even, if I feel I need to get a job, I. I would do the work on that sincerely, then I would answer yes and yes. And how do I feel? It’s like it wouldn’t be stressful. It’s like maybe, 

Todd: oh, say more. I’m not sure I followed say more. 

Client: Yeah. I mean if my truth is that I need to get a job and I would sincerely question that, maybe I would answer just yes.

And then like, how do I react when I believe that thought, everything’s fine. It’s yes, you just need to get a job. It’s 

Todd: that’s right. That’s what I mean by trusting whatever you find when you ask these questions. There is no right answer really. There is no right answer.

No is not the right answer for questions one and two. It’s whatever you find. And so if you are really I. For some reason, it’s your truth. You getting a job is what you really [00:26:00] want should whatever it is that feels true in a way. I hate to use words ’cause it’s hard to say it. Yeah. That, that you’ll just say, yeah.

You’ll say yes and then, or you go through the work and you find there is a little stress and you question it and oh, I was pushing myself to get a job. And then you stop the pushing. But when you’re done, maybe you don’t go live in a cave. Maybe you do get a job anyway, but it’s because it just, there’s no reason not to.

Client: Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s freedom again. 

Client: Cool. Yeah. And it answered a bit more about my first question with the two yeses and stuff, so that, that was good. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Client: A another thing I’m reminded of that I want, I wanted to hear your response about I. And I dunno if I will be able to express it as well as I would like to, but I’ll try.

So I see like [00:27:00] my belief system is like a web, and then I might question a thought and do the turnarounds. And my examples, my authentic examples to the turnarounds might be beliefs that right now are authentic and that give me some relief. But then as I am hopefully supposedly, hopefully progressing, maybe these turnarounds and examples don’t, are not authentic anymore.

And then it’s maybe I would need to question the thought again. Find other turnarounds and examples. So I dunno if you have something to say about it, but if you do 

Todd: yeah. We’re dealing with relativity, right? Like we’re right, [00:28:00] we’re starting with one thing. And then, and this is an experience like, oh, I don’t want this to happen.

And then we do the work, we turn it around, we find an example. I do want this to happen. And we find a genuine example for us in that moment, and that balances the original statement. So that’s the relat, like relatively, we have created some balance there, but there’s no absolute in that at all. And later, if I find that this example doesn’t work for me anymore or if it’s even stressful, then I can question that thing, I can even question the turnaround.

I can question anything. So all I’m doing is. Looking at one moment in time, that moment when I feel stress and I’m finding whatever examples come to mind to balance that, that gives me, that feels genuine to me in that moment. But I don’t have to hold that forever. [00:29:00] In fact, I usually let it go, and then we’ll find out where the next stress is, and then I’ll work on, on, on that and see how I can balance that.

So it’s it reminds me of like whitewater rafting. If you’re going down a river and you’re, and you think of like your tilting this way, then your turnaround is going to be to push and tilt the other way. But then you have to immediately go and go the other way again. So it’s never, you’re never, you don’t just do one turnaround, otherwise you’ll just go and into the water.

So it’s always listening. It’s, that’s why the work is a process. It’s always listening to myself, okay, what is, what’s left? What else is there? What more stress? Showing up. And with each listening, what’s the stress? I find another thing that I can balance and another thing, and it just becomes this ongoing balancing process that leads [00:30:00] to more and more balance.

And the more you balance, the more you can find the finer places where it’s a little bit off and you can balance those. And it just starts to becoming, starts to become more and more balanced. So I don’t worry about what the genuine example was from what I worked on last week. That’s history.

I’m only worried about this one right now. That’s all. 

Client: Wow. That was cool. It tied all sorts of things that we even spoke about in this conversation, like together. And yeah it’s really clear that some things up for me. It’s would you say if there was if there was

sort of a target for doing the work, would it be like to find balance? Because it, it ties for me with why we do turnarounds the way we do [00:31:00] because it’s like I already have the examples of why the original thought is true. That’s why I believe it. So I don’t need to find more examples for that right now.

I’ll find examples for the turnarounds and that would leave me like centered and in balance. 

Todd: Yes. Yes. That’s it. That’s how I see the work is if I’m imbalanced, I have too many examples on one side, then I will, the way I feel that imbalance is stress, right? So stress tells me when I’m imbalanced, and then when I do the work, I start to find the examples on the other side that starts to feel like it balances it out there too.

Then now we have some kind of equal examples on both sides. You know that question. Could it be as true or truer? So there’s this, there’s can be the balance. Both can be true or maybe the, this one was not true at all, but whatever I [00:32:00] find there’s this balancing act that happens. Now what happens if I keep going too far on one turnaround, then I can end up with an imbalance on the other side.

Like I’ll never work again. I don’t ever want to earn money again. I don’t ever that can be a stress if that’s like an imbalance on the other side. So I may need to question. I shouldn’t work. And then I come back to the balance point again. The only thing that tells me that I’m out of balance is my feelings.

So I’m listening to myself when I notice it’s not feeling right, then I question, and then I find where it feels right again. That’s all. That’s all. It’s very personal. 

Client: Interesting. And I’m trying to think about a pH, a phenomena, I dunno if I am saying this word correctly. Phenomenon.

Phenomenon. 

Todd: Yes. 

Client: That I saw both in myself and with people, I help, helped facilitate the work that sometimes [00:33:00] we tend to find a lot of examples for the turnaround to the self, especially if it’s like negative. Then, it might be a sort of a tendency, to be hard on ourselves.

It’s oh you want examples on why I’m bad? I have dozens of them. And then yeah. It’s so say I do, I question a thought like, Todd is, it’s Todd’s fault. And then I do the turnaround to me and it’s it’s my fault. And then I have like dozens of turnarounds and I start to cry and feel so bad about myself. So then would you suggest maybe that I question that turnaround?

It’s yeah. 

Todd: Yeah, exactly. Why wouldn’t you question that turnaround? Because now I’m, you’re the only time you would question that [00:34:00] turnaround. If that turnaround is bringing you stress, then that’s not it. Yeah. So question it and find the balance again. So where I go with if I’m working with someone and they start going too much on that it’s my fault, it’s my fault, it’s my fault.

Then I just remind them the only purpose of the turnaround is to balance the original thought. And now we can see that the, that you were doing a little bit, it’s like a little bit your fault and a little bit their fault. So now there’s a joining, like we’re both at a part to play in that and it’s, it like levels the playing field and it feels it feels like balance.

So what happens is when I see that it’s also my fault, not only his fault, then I’m not blaming him so much anymore. But if I go from blaming him and then finding it’s my fault and really finding my fault, then I’m, and I’m blaming me. I’ve, I’m still violent. Before I was violent towards [00:35:00] him, now I’m violent towards myself.

I have not actually done anything. I’ve not transcended, I’ve just switched the blame from him to me. But what the work offers, if you do it in a gentle way, is that you can find that place where his fault and my fault kind of work, kind of balance each other out and, okay, get it. We’re both human beings.

We’re doing the best we can, and we both had a part to play. And it’s like forgiveness happens, 

Client: which I really love because,

because then I also, it’s like I’m left realistic. It’s not that because I saw. My fault or because I said no, to the first question, it means that it’s not true at all. It’s like I can still, fire the ineffective employee and I can still break up [00:36:00] with the, beds match of a girlfriend and whatever.

Yes. It’s 

Todd: yes, exactly. This is people’s fear of the work. They think that if I do the work, I’m gonna be stuck with a turnaround. That is like the new trap for me, where I cannot act, I cannot get a job. I cannot break up with the girlfriend cannot hire anyone. Please don’t make me do the work because it will be all my fault and I can’t do anything.

That wouldn’t be terrible, but that’s not what the work’s doing. The work is just saying, listen to yourself. Do you feel some stress? Something is like out of balance. You’re going too far on the blaming of the other person, let’s say. So let’s come back and find out where, oh yeah, I had a little part to play and just enough to feel like I can release that person and without going too much in blaming myself and then it, the whole thing just floats.

Then it’s oh, okay. No big deal. We’re all just humans here. [00:37:00] And then and then I can take whatever action is necessary. Yeah, absolutely. That’s freedom. That’s freedom. So if your turnaround is binding you, it’s if it’s causing you to become stuck or trapped, then that’s not it.

That’s not like that. That’s like flipping from one side to the other. Yeah, that’s like the all or nothing. And in the beginning, maybe that’s all you can do, but. But if you can catch that a little bit and just hold those two opposites and find that balance point that’s what I see as the essence of doing the work.

Client: Yeah. Although, for me, I know that sometimes I find out that what I thought is like almost or completely not true. 

Todd: Yes. 

Client: That’s another, I was, quote unquote, the only one at fault. And then I apologize. Most of the time that’s different. 

Todd: Yeah. So there’s different situations.

Each situation’s a little bit different. What we were [00:38:00] talking about before is where both things are true, which happens sometimes, but sometimes what I was originally thinking was completely false. Like I was completely in, I’m just projecting. Yeah. Pure projection, completely illusion. And then it’s once you see that, oh, okay, sorry, I was crazy.

I didn’t see the truth. And that’s also freeing. So there’s a difference between, see what happens there is you see it so clearly that you own it and there’s no real self beating up. There’s a difference between owning. It’s my fault and blaming myself that it’s my fault, right? If I’m blaming myself, I’m attacking myself.

It’s violent, it’s not, it’s stressful, but if I’m just owning it, there’s freedom in that. I can apologize. I can do whatever I need to do. 

Client: Thank you for that. And which brings me to another question that for a long [00:39:00] time, my sort of criteria for finding examples to the turnarounds was, and it wasn’t like a formal criteria, but just my intuition or I don’t know, from working with other methods and spiritual teachers, let’s say.

So my criteria for a long time has been that the examples at least make me feel a sort of a relief. And I worked with a facilitator and maybe I didn’t understand, their meaning, but I think that they offered me an example and I said, it doesn’t feel good for me. And then they said that’s not the point of the work feeling good.

It’s about the truth. But then I have a sort of an understanding or a belief that the truth, [00:40:00] like the real truth

has to feel good because all is well. So if you have something to say about it, 

Todd: yeah, it’s what we’re looking for is yes the truth, but we’re looking for my truth. So my truth, I recognize my truth because it feels, it does feel good. It feels true. It feels, it might be humbling. It might even be, some parts of me might be scared to see that truth, but there’s a part of me, if it’s really my truth that recognizes, oh yeah, that’s true.

And it feels good. And you also mentioned like that this facilitator gave you an example, so that may be the example that they see, which is true for them, and it feels good for them even. But you’re not seeing it, you’re just hearing something from them. You haven’t really, you didn’t find that within yourself or didn’t [00:41:00] recognize it when they shared it.

And so basically it’s not your truth. 

Client: And maybe I didn’t understand what they’re saying or interpreted it. You might find 

Todd: with time that might become your truth, you might contemplate it. And after time come to say, oh my God, she, he or she was completely right. Oh my God, that really is what’s going on.

But until that happens, it’s not your truth. It’s just you might as well be reading a book about something and then this is the theories and all that. Like the work is experiential. So experience means I have to experience it. If I’m not experiencing it, then it means absolutely nothing 

Client: and that’s why we offer examples and because it might, yeah, it might not be like the moment for the person or for me, like to, 

Todd: yeah.

Yeah. A facilitator offers an example and [00:42:00] it’s just an option from me, from my point of view, doing the work. They’re throwing some options into the air, but. They may not resonate with me, and a lot of times they don’t. So I just discard those. Thank you. Thank you. And that’s not for me. But sometimes, one gets thrown out there and I’m like, oh my God, that is totally resonating with me.

And so now that is my truth. Who cares if it came from them or from me? It’s it’s resonating. So that is my criteria for a turnaround example, is it is genuine, right? The word genuine, it’s always what Byron Katie uses. Look for genuine examples of how that turnaround could be as true or true for you.

Yeah, if it feels genuine, then that’s it. And yeah, that’s it. 

Client: Nice. Okay. Let’s see. What else do I have here? I. Okay. [00:43:00] So I think right now I have only one question, and that’s, it’s a tricky one. I just,

I’ll just ask it. It’s like

lately I was like, does the work even is it helpful at all? Does it do anything? How could I know if it’s like good, quote unquote to do the work? And it’s like my, like the reason I do the work is because I enjoy it. And because I feel like smarter or like wiser afterwards, like especially with the turnarounds, I call it like yoga for the mind.

Yes. Like a more flexible, but it’s I don’t know, maybe it’s like before I had maybe some [00:44:00] like higher expectations that it would change my life and stuff like that. And I’m like, does it really do that? I don’t know if I could know, it’s like how could I know that if something really good happen happens in my life, that it’s due to me doing the work?

So again, 

Todd: if you have something to say about it, I’d love to hear. Sure. Yeah. It’s a great, it’s a great question. And I think basically you can’t know how can we know what, how can we know that, oh, now I’m doing better. That’s coming from for sure. From the work or from just life just changed or just somehow, who knows?

I to measure the effect of it can be done, can we, can, we can play with it. There’ve been so few scientific experiments done on the work and there’s some results there. So it can be, but can you know for [00:45:00] sure exactly what’s going on? I don’t know. I don’t know. Maybe.

So I’m the same as you. I don’t worry about that. I used to like, I want to get enlightened. I want to be like a hundred percent free, or I wanna be like Byron Katie or anything like that. Now suddenly I’m doing the work with this motive to get that and get that, and I’m measuring every step. Am I getting closer?

Is it working, am I not? And my mind is full of trying to get somewhere instead of just doing the work. And so where I’ve landed is exactly what you just said is I do the work because I enjoy doing the work. I feel good when I do it. It feels like I, like you take a bath and you just feel the nice feeling like, oh great.

So that’s why I do the work. And great. It also seems to give me insights and like you say, it’s like yoga for the brain. I feel more flexible. I feel more resilient. I’m able to deal [00:46:00] with stress way better than I used to. Yeah, there is something, I have a feeling the work has something to do with that.

I really do. But can I prove it? No. And then, and what’s the end point? I have no idea. Yeah. So I don’t worry too much about it. I do it because I like to do it, and it’s a, I recently started doing the work. I was doing the work for a long time, five days, five days a week. So like almost every day, but not every day.

And then I thought, why not just do it every day? Like, why not? And so I started doing it literally every day now, seven days a week, vacation, weekend, anything. I do other things like that. So I wanted to just play with that. And what I’m noticing is I feel a little bit better. Like that feeling is like I’m dipping into that.

More often, and it’s something I enjoy. It’s like [00:47:00] doing yoga every day. If you do it like once a week, it’s nice, but if you do it every day, it’s like you, there’s a different feeling that comes into the body and the same thing I’m finding with the work. So I do the work, it’s a weird thing.

I do the work because I like it and I and I question, I actually do do the work. If I didn’t put any attention to like routine or regularity of doing it, I might not do it that often just because there’s so many things in life that pull me away, right? But it’s enough that I’m willing to play with making it a priority even.

And so that’s, it’s a strange thing. Maybe there’s still a motive there. To get more and more free. That’s probably true. Enlightenment still is a thought that runs around in my brain sometimes, but [00:48:00] what makes it feel like something I want to keep doing, I think is more that it reinforces itself with the experience.

If I was doing the work every day and it was feeling like a like just terrible, like stressful, I would stop. Yeah. I would stop. 

Client: Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Client: Nice. Okay, so I think I have another two now. And you tell me. We have a few minutes. I think so. Yeah. I’ll have to go pretty 

Todd: soon.

But what are your questions? 

Client: So I’ve heard you say that you practice another form of meditation and I do too. But I guess I know my reason and I was curious about yours because I feel sometimes that it’s hard for me to do the work by myself, and I don’t think you have that problem. [00:49:00] And that’s why I do another form of meditation, and I was wondering like why you do another form of meditation or maybe what does it give you or what does the work like, lack maybe for you or, I dunno. 

Todd: Yeah. I’ve been doing another form of meditation. I do transcendental meditation since I was six years old. And so my whole life, I’ve always been meditating.

It’s like a, it’s like a habit. It’s something that I have always done and I love doing. It brings me a feeling of. Settledness and happiness and peace. It’s it’s one of the highlights of my day. I love to sit and meditate. And I’ve often thought about, the work and meditation and the differences and the similarities of the, in my experience, and I see them as basically doing the same thing.

They’re both increasing awareness. And so it’s like the analogy is like they’re the, there’s the light is increasing when I’m doing either the me the [00:50:00] work or my meditation. The difference is when I’m doing my meditation, it feels like the light is going up. Like generally in the room, like the whole light is going up.

Whereas with the work I’m looking at one particular spot that’s especially dark and I’m putting the light on that one spot and it’s starting to, open up there. So it’s like the difference between specific in general, I think a little bit. But they’re very complimentary.

So whatever light has increased just from the meditation, that’s also helping me when I’m doing the work and when I’m doing the work on some particular knot, it’s helping me in my meditation. So they they’re very sympathetic or symbiotic. I would say. Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah. But I do it for the same reason, just like you said, because I enjoy it.

That’s it. That’s it. Because, I used to be, I got into meditation just because my dad did it. And then I liked doing that. And we used to do [00:51:00] yoga together and then meditate and it was sweet. And then I got more into it, and then I got really on enlightenment. I wanna get enlightened. And then that’s been, that didn’t quite come as quickly as I was hoping.

So then I just let go of a lot of that. And maybe some of that’s from the work also, but now I just do those practices because they really are, they bring me joy. They bring me a feeling of being myself and happiness that I love and so that’s a priority for me. That’s why I do it.

Client: Yeah. Nice. I remember myself saying something similar, that the work is like uprooting, like a specific plant and like meditation is like going like that over, like a field or something. It’s yes. Although your metaphor is gentler and nicer. 

Todd: Same idea. Same idea. [00:52:00] Yeah. Exactly. 

Client: Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I have still a question or two, but I think it’s a good time for us to Okay. That’s how I feel. At least that’s, yeah. It’s probably a good 

Todd: time. I hear things rustling around up in the kitchen. Probably. Probably. My lunch is about ready, so I should I should go. But this has been a pleasure.

It’s really nice to sit with you and listen to your questions and think about this together. What I enjoy the most is your, just your genuineness your interest, your your experience, the way you think through these things on your own, the way you’ve pay attention to what Byron Katie has said.

You just, I see you as very interested in exploring this area. And so that’s also how I love to be. And so it’s really nice to meet, have our two minds together and to sit and think about it. It’s really a pleasure. [00:53:00] So anytime, if you wanna do it again, I’m always happy. Oh, 

Client: I’d love to.

I’d love you. I’d say, I said without meaning to I, I love you and it’s true also. Thank you so much. Yeah. I have no words to express. To express and I truly was helpful and it cleared a lot of things for me and. Just thank you. 

Todd: You’re very welcome. Thanks for inviting me. Cool. All right, we’ll talk to you later.

Bye. Bye.